Elbow Protection


#21

dm59,

What will you accept as proof? I know of one young man, throwing close to the way Marshall advocates, who has hit well over 100 mph. Simply because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean that it is not real and true. I take at face value that I am a collection of atoms and particles even smaller, though I’ve not seen them. That said, high velocity isn’t a great benchmark. The best hitters in baseball still hit homeruns off men like Randy Johnson. Movement of pitches is more critical. If not, how can someone like Wakefield keep his job throwing knuckleballs in the 70’s?

You do not know me and I can understand that you might wish not to believe me or trust me. Fair enough. But check it out for yourself if you really wish to know. If you were to take a trip to Marshall’s facility you would prove it to yourself. This is exactly what my son and I did before he made the decision to train with Dr. Marshall. When he made this decision he walked away from what was most likely a second offer from a major league franchise. Why? Because we believed in what we saw, and don’t wish for him to go through life needlessly maimed. Now that he has pitched every day for 20 months, without structural pain, and is acquiring pitches that move more than anything you have ever seen on a major league field, we believe because he is living proof.

Earlier this week my son told me “I’m tring to kill my arm, because I’m just getting stronger.” He’s throwing the equivalent of well over 200 high intensity pitches every day. No one can do this with conventional mechanics.

My offer still stands…send me a PM and I will arrange for you (or anyone else) to see images of what these guys are working on. All I ask is that you keep them off the web.

Coach45


#22

What I said was that the shoulder isn’t a conventional ball and socket joint (like the hip). That is part of the reason why it has such a broad range of motion.

The shoulder joint isn’t conventional because much of the depth of the socket isn’t formed by bone; rather, it’s formed by the Glenoid Labrum, which is a rim made of cartilage (kind of like an O-Ring). Because the Glenoid Labrum is made of cartilage, and not bone, it is susceptible to tearing and other types of disruption. Once that happens, the stability of the shoulder can be permanently compromised.

That is why Labrum injuries like Robb Nen’s are so often career-ending. Often, there is nothing that can be done to completely or even suitably repair the structure.

Here’s a link to a document that describes the structure of the shoulder.


[/quote]

there you go again trying to give me a lesson I do not need especially from you, I know this stuff you dont. Believe me Chris YOU are the LAST person I need to educate me on the shoulder or the elbow, you dont know, you have already proven it over and over again. Your proving it as we speak. You are now trying to get off topic yet again. Now you are changing the subject to the glenoid which I know exactly what it is how its formed and how injuries involve it. Whats next you going to tell me the glenoid is part of the upper too? Chris you cannot continue to skew words to fit your lack of knowledge or your notions with me. I know to much as well as having the luxery of been around the block more than a few times concerning these matters. Im on a 10 speed your on a tricycle, Ive already lapped you so many times its not funny. The fact is you dont have a clue as to what you are talking about. again you have proven that to me over and over again. Now go play pitching guru while looking at oyur “photo albums”.

Ill tease you alittle though. When a “real” pitcher, that excludes you for sure. When he has his arm fully cocked and ready to accel it towards the target is the forearm in pronation or not? When a high level pitcher has the ball pointed anywhere behind 3rd base for righty is his forearm in pronatin or not? This is a simple yes or no question Chris. One of your famous “notions” is not needed it is a yes or no answer.


#23

It varies from pitcher to pitcher. If he’s showing the ball to Center Field (ala Danys Baez
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/PitcherInjuryAnalysisProject/Analyses/Documents/PitcherAnalysis_DanysBaez.pdf
in frame 7.1), then his forearm is pronated.

When you say “behind,” I assume you mean to the Left Field side of the 3B bag.

The answer is that it depends on whether his shoulders are reverse-rotated or not (technically, it also depends on how you define a neutral position, or one that is neither pronated nor supinated).

If his shoulders aren’t reverse-rotated, then his forearm likely is pronated. If his shoulders are reverse-rotated, then his forearm may or may not be pronated.


#24

[quote=“Coach45”]What will you accept as proof?[/quote]Independant verification by knowledgeable people who are not in Mike Marsall’s “camp”.

[quote=“Coach45”]…has hit well over 100 mph.[/quote]Then why isn’t he playing in the bigs?

[quote=“Coach45”]Simply because you haven’t seen it doesn’t mean that it is not real and true. I take at face value that I am a collection of atoms and particles even smaller, though I’ve not seen them.[/quote]Obviously!!! Saying something like this still doesn’t prove anything. I haven’t seen Sasquatch either but that statement above doesn’t mean it exists. Proof is still required.

[quote=“Coach45”]That said, high velocity isn’t a great benchmark. The best hitters in baseball still hit homeruns off men like Randy Johnson. Movement of pitches is more critical. If not, how can someone like Wakefield keep his job throwing knuckleballs in the 70’s?[/quote]Agreed but I’m sure you’re not saying that velocity isn’t important. I’ll take a guy with high velo AND changing speeds AND movement any day over a slow pitcher with movement. Yes, you have your Wakefields out there but they’re few and far between.

[quote=“Coach45”]…check it out for yourself if you really wish to know. If you were to take a trip to Marshall’s facility you would prove it to yourself.[/quote]A little tough for me. That would be quite an expensive proposition. He’s in Florida, I’m in Nova Scotia. I’d love to see it but I’m afraid it just won’t happen. Therefore, I need other proof.

[quote=“Coach45”]Now that he has pitched every day for 20 months, without structural pain, and is acquiring pitches that move more than anything you have ever seen on a major league field, we believe because he is living proof.[/quote]That’s excellent.

Coach45. I’ve not said Marshall’s wrong. I truly hope that he’s right. Really. I just haven’t seen the kind of verification that I need to be sure he’s right.


#25

It varies from pitcher to pitcher. If he’s showing the ball to Center Field (ala Danys Baez
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/PitcherInjuryAnalysisProject/Analyses/Documents/PitcherAnalysis_DanysBaez.pdf
in frame 7.1), then his forearm is pronated.

When you say “behind,” I assume you mean to the Left Field side of the 3B bag.

The answer is that it depends on whether his shoulders are reverse-rotated or not (technically, it also depends on how you define a neutral position, or one that is neither pronated nor supinated).

If his shoulders aren’t reverse-rotated, then his forearm likely is pronated. If his shoulders are reverse-rotated, then his forearm may or may not be pronated.[/quote]

Reverse Rotating the shoulders has nothing to do with whether a persons arm is pronated or not or if it can or cant be. The scap is a platform that everything rides on. Reverse rotation doesnt pronate the arm any less/further than if they are not rotated at all. A persons upper may travel /rotate further due to countering but it has no relevance to the movement of the individual arm as it relates to pronation. Because the scap and the humerus can rotate freely on thier own and are not tied to each other like cement [mobile]. The cocking process used by the majority of high level pitchers puts the upper arm in internal rotation and the lower arm in external rotation, pronation [get some info on humeral retroversion as it relates to the humerus and baseball pitchers] . From that phase the scapula is the arms/shoulders carriage, the arms positioning stays the same until elbow extention. This is one area that you Marshallites refuse to acknowledge and it is as basic as it gets. Im specifically speaking about counter rotation and how it relates to the rest of the body [ in this instance the arm and your “notion” of how reverse rotation as anything to do with its ability to pronate or not. This is the time when you Marhsallites bring up how countering is a waste because it negates newtons theory about straight line force application. Instead this time I expect an explanation from you on how counter rotating has any effect on ones ability to pronate or be pronated, they simply are not related other than they both should happen in a pitching delivery.


#26

Coach 45,

That’s really amazing! I have never heard of a pitcher throwing 200 high velocity pitches A DAY, EVERY DAY for 20 MONTHS. Especially considering his age. I assume if he has turned down offers from affiliated organizations, he is either in his senior year at a 4 year school or second year at a junior college.

Do these mechanics alter in any way playability–holding runners, deception, warming up quickly to enter from the pen, or defense?

Do you forsee a situation in the future, if these mechanics take off, that a #1 pitcher for a major league team will pitch 4 or 5 times a week? Judging from your sons feedback, this is ultimately the way baseball will go in the future.
This all seems very hard to fathom but interesting at the same time.


#27

[quote=“Coach DeLunas”]Coach 45,

That’s really amazing! I have never heard of a pitcher throwing 200 high velocity pitches A DAY, EVERY DAY for 20 MONTHS. Especially considering his age. I assume if he has turned down offers from affiliated organizations, he is either in his senior year at a 4 year school or second year at a junior college.

Do these mechanics alter in any way playability–holding runners, deception, warming up quickly to enter from the pen, or defense?

Do you forsee a situation in the future, if these mechanics take off, that a #1 pitcher for a major league team will pitch 4 or 5 times a week? Judging from your sons feedback, this is ultimately the way baseball will go in the future.
This all seems very hard to fathom but interesting at the same time.[/quote]

Coach DeLunas,

You left out one critical word from my description: equivalent. Some of these reps are throwing a heavy iron ball, wrist weights, and other training implements. The mechanic for these drills is identical to the pitching mechanic. How many guys can throw a 12 pound iron ball, with absolute maximum intensity, just like they throw the baseball?

Send me an e-mail address and I will show you the wrist weight exercises. Regardless of the other implements, he throws a mimumum of 48 pitches, with maximum intensity, every single day, seven days per week.

My son would have played his second year of JUCO ball this year. He did not yet feel ready to compete to the best of his ability and walked away from a full ride this fall (2005), returning to train with Dr. Marshall for another year.

Like any other skill, when these pitchers learn and master everything they need, they will excel on the diamond. There is a downside for lefties because the typical pickoff move to first base is not applicable; right-handers end up with the advantage. However, the moves to second, for RH or LH pitchers are stunning. Times to the plate are very quick, and they release the ball considerably closer to home plate…when they master skills. Judging from what I have seen against hitters this motion is much more deceptive, on a number of counts. If you want in-depth info I can provide it.

In talking with Dr. Marshall about time between starts, I conclude that starting pitchers would likely be most effective used every fourth game. The jury is out because no one has done it. A reliever could throw very often. Why do you think that Dr. Marshall was able to throw in 106 games during one season? At one point he threw in 13 consecutive games. Both records still stand.

After spending hundreds and hundreds of hours investigating what Dr. Marshall is advocating I conclude that, at some point, this will be the future of baseball. And pitchers will stop tearing their arms up. Fascinating? You bet.

Maybe you’d like to speak with my son or the high schooler I’ve been training?

Coach45


#28

No. But it will determine where their hand is pointing at the moment that their shoulders start to turn.


#29

No. But it will determine where their hand is pointing at the moment that their shoulders start to turn.[/quote]

Chris you say NO here but in your last post you made a distinct reference as to pronation being related to reverse rotation. So which is it. Again you do not know what the hell you are talking about. So in typical Chris Oleary fashion you serve up yet another “notion”.


#30

No I didn’t. They are physically independent and I never said otherwise.

However, the amount to which the shoulders are reverse-rotated, and the amount with which the forearm is pronated, will determine where the palm is facing at the moment the shoulders start to turn.


#31

No I didn’t. They are physically independent and I never said otherwise.

However, the amount to which the shoulders are reverse-rotated, and the amount with which the forearm is pronated, will determine where the palm is facing at the moment the shoulders start to turn.[/quote]

Wrong yet again Chris. I asked you a simple yes or no question you could not answer it. If you thought the two were totally independent ,which they are you would have said so right than, a simple YES. Instead you went into a typical pontification about depending on reverse rotation. Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the question. Yes you are right for a change about where the hand is but again thast is/was totally irrelevant to the question and its also irrelevant to the fact if the arm is pronated or not.