Drag line and Unlocking lower half clips

I know I posted this in drag line\r thread but it ties in well with the above. I think.

Enjoy

hi Fred,

on the first clip are you saying that CC drives off his back leg, opening his foot, knee, and back hip which then opens his front hip to the target before/at front foot strike? And this creates hip shoulder separation?

[quote=“Rolan Nyan”]hi Fred,

on the first clip are you saying that CC drives off his back leg, opening his foot, knee, and back hip which then opens his front hip to the target before/at front foot strike? And this creates hip shoulder separation?[/quote]

No to all of those questions, but CC is driving off his back leg. My hope was to show the rhythmic action and connection of both stride foot and base foot in unlocking the hips or visa versa. I believe it is a great clip to see what some term as “pelvic loading” which you can see all the way to the point in which the red line starts it 's upward action of the arc. As it comes around and into foot strike (light blue) is the start of the unloading phase. The yellow is the back foot rolling to its laces to allow for the hips to fire off the energy of the bracing of stride foot and leg.

My thoughts on hips to shoulder separation are very simple and is currently in the works of making the clip titled “A Common Sense Thought to the Simplicity of Hip to Shoulder Separation.”

This clip helped me understand it. As well, as having worked with it for a few years.

Hope this helps in understanding my movie making abilities and what I was trying to convey.

Would like to hear your thoughts of what you saw and how you would answer those same questions.

Thanks.

So Fred you think the last portion, the green, is some form of concious pelvic …thrust, as opposed to his natural style? It’s ironic to me as I see Lincecum as also working to create more pelvic/lower…thrust? I say that because you hear all the stories of TL’s dad “developing” the kid, I wonder if this isn’t the “development”. Your associating his (TL’s) delivery with that of Sandy K. was also very interesting. It does bring up the idea as to whether this is a “teach” or we should all be on the look out for kids displaying this “naturally”. The additional “thrust teach” could conceivably be a nightmare to timing.
CC has always kind of been of interest to me as he develops power like that for a huge guy, in a very nimble fashion.

It is CC’s natural style. No thought to it except for maybe it was brought about with some of his younger instruction. I believe you can develop it. I think this whole hip to shoulder separation gig, if desired, is an easy get. I will be making a small instructional clip for that very soon. I just don’t know how important it is in the sense of “more” or “less” is better or worse.
As for my comparison with Koufax and TL, it was to show similarity from a gap of 50 plus years. What goes around, comes around. Watch out for bell bottoms!
The teach for this is very easy, understanding why and when it happens and more so the “why”, will make increased intent with a few verbal cues a neat learning segment. I placed a video a while back on drills to improve or maintain the delivery and the 60-40-20 drill is a B+ drill for attaining a bit of that feel.
CC’s nimble actions came from a very athletic childhood. He is an all around athlete with a great heart and love for what he does.

Fred,

I understand the pelvic load at leg lift, but I still am not clear on how he fires them open to the target.

1- If the back leg drive is not the trigger, then what is?
2- you say hip/shoulder sep is an easy get. How?
3- Do you disagree with the NPA that 80% of velocity is attributtable to hip/shoulder separation?

A video describing your concept would be awesome.
:slight_smile:

[quote=“Rolan Nyan”]Fred,

I understand the pelvic load at leg lift, but I still am not clear on how he fires them open to the target.

1- If the back leg drive is not the trigger, then what is?
2- you say hip/shoulder sep is an easy get. How?
3- Do you disagree with the NPA that 80% of velocity is attributtable to hip/shoulder separation?

A video describing your concept would be awesome.
:)[/quote]

I am not ready to answer these things because when I put something down on tape and I place it out there it is not for any reason other than I want to help in finding the simplicity in this whole process. I, like everyone who shares, do not want to do any harm. With that, I will be working on it after my Savior’s birthday.
My answer is not to create build up like a new version of IPhone. I will respond to your questions as:

  1. The back leg drive is crucial for triggering lower half energy by building momentum for energy of braking action of stride foot plant. The video was to show how the opening of stride foot is synced with back foot rolling or triggering. This is more evident in lower halfs that work more in a linear mode. Leg swing guys have it but not in the same manner but around same area.
  2. It is and I will share that. (I should have kept that in the hat, now I have to start that video project soon)
  3. Yes and no, depends on what they say is better, “more” or “less”. Dropping a statistic like that might get me working dilligently to attain more. If this is the case I would say I don’t agree.

Fred,

Thanks for the reply, but I tend to disagree. Hi velocity pitchers use their back legs like a sprinter coming out of the blocks. So I do not think that the “back foot rolls”. Instead, the backfoot drives off the rubber and propels the hips open. Look at this picture of Lincecum. His back foot has pushed off the rubber (not rolled) and his hips are facing the catcher, while his shoulders are completely closed. And he is actually airborne!!!
This can not occur by simply “rolling the back foot”. He has exploded off the rubber in a linear movement.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoS1KO_VO8lcAZbeJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dtim%2Blincecum%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dfptb-hpd05%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D58&w=500&h=400&imgurl=stevelundeberg.mvourtown.com%2Ffiles%2F2010%2F02%2Ftim_lincecum.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fstevelundeberg.mvourtown.com%2F2010%2F02%2F11%2Fthursday-top-7-the-major-leagues-best-uniforms%2F&size=53.1+KB&name=…+Tim+Lincecum%2C+whom+the+Mariners+failed+to+draft+when+they+had+the&p=tim+lincecum&oid=6cf123c04fb04d7bfbf4df288551ed99&fr2=&fr=fptb-hpd05&tt=…%2BTim%2BLincecum%252C%2Bwhom%2Bthe%2BMariners%2Bfailed%2Bto%2Bdraft%2Bwhen%2Bthey%2Bhad%2Bthe&b=31&ni=21&no=58&tab=organic&ts=&sigr=12uhod64n&sigb=134ljdi38&sigi=11rpmph4k&.crumb=coVqDZeShKw

^^

I couldnt paste the picture, but the link is there.

[quote=“Rolan Nyan”]Fred,

Thanks for the reply, but I tend to disagree. Hi velocity pitchers use their back legs like a sprinter coming out of the blocks. So I do not think that the “back foot rolls”. Instead, the backfoot drives off the rubber and propels the hips open. Look at this picture of Lincecum. His back foot has pushed off the rubber (not rolled) and his hips are facing the catcher, while his shoulders are completely closed. And he is actually airborne!!!
This can not occur by simply “rolling the back foot”. He has exploded off the rubber in a linear movement.
[/quote]

Don’t know what you are disagreeing with Rolan, You have taken this out of it’s context which is ok, it just allows for me to clear some things up.

Not all power pitchers come out of the blocks like sprinters. If Tim Lincecum was the only power pitcher, I would have to change that response and agree.

Rolling your laces is not the source of power but the action that allows for the back side to fire. The clip was to show:

[quote]My hope was to show the rhythmic action and connection of both stride foot and base foot in unlocking the hips or visa versa. I believe it is a great clip to see what some term as “pelvic loading” which you can see all the way to the point in which the red line starts it 's upward action of the arc. As it comes around and into foot strike (light blue) is the start of the unloading phase. The yellow is the back foot rolling to its laces to allow for the hips to fire off the energy of the bracing of stride foot and leg.
[/quote]

I agree.

Nice thoughts. If you are a coach and if you don’t mind me offering a tip(One that took me a few years to soak in myself). It would be to understand that where TL may be the poster child for certain philosophies, don’t let it be the extent of your thought process. It will limit you to a small percentage of pitchers out there.
This is my mission, this is my goal…I want young pitchers to know that they are masters and veterens of their styles. They are unique in their approaches. Some have hip to shoulder separation and throw hard and some slow. Some don’t have H/S/sep and throw hard and some slow. Some straighten their stride leg going into release. Some keep the same degree of angle from stride foot plant to release. Both throw hard and some slow.

Heaven forbid someone comes along and observes that you are one or the other and you don’t fit his philosophy and you start working on becoming TL when being Smoltz was ok. Think if someone told CC to fire out as a sprinter? All the hours trying to do so could have taken away from other aspects that made him who he is today.
Merry Christmas and you are awesome for bringing it up. (it is ok to disagree as well)

Fred:

Thanks for the clarification.  I would like to add to the discussion on drag line.  

From your clip explaining drag line, it appears the optimal drag line occurs as a result of the pitcher coming through and turning over his hips (which should be an easy teach).  Not to do so would result in a straight drag line. Only when the post leg hip comes through and turns over,

do we see the optimal characteristics of the drag line.

 One further question for everyone.  Do you think having a drag line in any way deminishes velocity? Similar to, but not to the extent, of how we were taught the change by draging the  back foot?

re: “…Do you think having a drag line in any way deminishes velocity?”

-----------Naaah, a drag-line doesn’t diminish velocity unless the pitcher is purposely trying to slow himself by digging a furrow with his post foot. Most pitchers, really a large majority, do have a drag line as result of their dynamic posture from MER through to ball release. Including this guy, who was still getting mid-90’s velo into his mid-40’s…

A pitcher’s drag line gives important information about his delivery–to the best of my understanding I think Tom House was the first person to think seriously about using a pitcher’s drag-line (or lack of) as a diagnostic tool.

Young pitchers without any drag-line are often not very well balanced in the approach to release, and so release point consistency can often be troublesome for them. House does not recommend teaching a pitcher to have a drag-line, per se; however, some of the postural changes he recommends to help certain parts of the delivery, posture and balance, do often result in a pitcher developing a drag-line.

Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year to all at LTP!!!

I’m thinking Nolan’s drag line was influenced by how tight those pants were. :shock: :goofball: :bigroll:

Fred Corral: Not all power pitchers come out of the blocks like sprinters. If Tim Lincecum was the only power pitcher, I would have to change that response and agree. Rolling your laces is not the source of power but the action that allows for the back side to fire.

Thanks Fred,

My comments were related to power pitchers, as TL and Koufax were referenced. I would also state that I believe all hi velocity pitchers who are smaller in stature all come out of the blocks like sprinters and have optimal hip shoulder separation. This is how they generate that velocity. And the drive leg is the key trigger not rolling the laces. I would agree that taller larger pitchers can lack these two things. They can get away from this due to the advantage that they have in height and mass.

If someone could point out a pitcher who is under 6 feet and under 200 lbs who throws 90+ and does so without an explosive drive leg and optimal hip shoulder separation I would change my mind…

[quote=“Rolan Nyan”]This is how they generate that velocity. And the drive leg is the key trigger not rolling the laces. I would agree that taller larger pitchers can lack these two things. They can get away from this due to the advantage that they have in height and mass.
[/quote]

Rolan,

This is not a blast on you. It just seems that you are not grasping what the clip was to convey. Rolling laces allows the back side to unlock. I for one, am not claiming it precedes leg drive. My question to you is that if it is the reason small guys throw hard, then why wouldn’t big guys like Randy Johnson or CC take full advantage of it and throw 110? I’m sure they could make the dirt area larger if necessary so I would eliminate the constricting area as a reason for anybody out there that might think so.

I am not trying to change your mind but…

I present to you 5’10 - 170 lb. Matt Bush.

The little timer on the clip was to show that intent and tempo of the approach was a key (for some) in throwing absolute gas. The counter is for frames. From the highest point of leg lift to release point was the area of focus. Hard throwers for me, I found were somewhere between 18-21 frames. or .48 to .68 seconds. being that video is shot at 29.9 frames per sec. This is more of absolute for small guys throwing hard than "sprinter take-offs or getting the maximum hip/shoulder separation.

One of the best things ever instructed to me was by Coach Weinstein and that was “In baseball, like life, there are no “always or nevers”.”

I’ve never really understood the phrase “explosive leg drive” with reference to typical pitching deliveries… Since the post leg of most pitchers doesn’t straighten until near the release point (if it straightens at all), when there is little or no weight on it, it is hard to see how the post leg does anything to actively “drive the pitcher forward”.

However, this also seems to be an endless and ultimately unproductive debate point, since most pitchers “feel” kinesthetically that they do “drive” off the post leg. Once upon a time, somebody at LTP probably got closer than the rest of us with his discussion of the kinsethetic feel of “driving with the post leg” really occurring at the hips, leading to hip-shoulder separation.

The clip of Matt Bush is a nice one, but if it’s being used as an example of someone who doesn’t use hip-shoulder separation in his delivery I think that is a mistake. Especially in the slo-mo segments, the clip can be paused to show very substantial hip-shoulder separation in the moment before his shoulders rotate open to launch the ball.

[quote=“laflippin”]
The clip of Matt Bush is a nice one, but if it’s being used as an example of someone who doesn’t use hip-shoulder separation in his delivery I think that is a mistake. Especially in the slo-mo segments, the clip can be paused to show very substantial hip-shoulder separation in the moment before his shoulders rotate open to launch the ball.[/quote]

laflippin,
It is not to demonstrate that he has hip to shoulder separation. That is evident as you so well described.
Questions:

  1. Why do we see hip to shoulder separation in some guys? Most?
  2. Why does it occur and is more better than less?

I would like some thoughts or theories on these and this one…

  1. Does anyone know who came about this and it’s importance?

Hi Fred,

No blast or offense taken. I just disagree with the comment that “Rolling laces allows the back side to unlock.” I believe that the “unlock” occurs as you push off the drive foot/leg. This action rotates and extends the ankle, knee, and hip flexor.

It looks to me that at the :48 mark he does get pretty good hip shoulder separation, so Im not sure this proves your point. I will agree that he doesnt launch himself off the rubber, but he seems to get a good ankle kick and he pushes his ankle, knee, and hip through. I cant tell from the clip, but he seems to get off the rubber as well. I am open to changing my mind if the evidence supports it. However, I dont find this example to be that compelling in that he appears to be getting hip shoulder separation. If I were to list a long list of examples would that change your mind?

hi Fred,

The 3 questions you asked are actually the better discussion point.

  1. Why do we see hip to shoulder separation in some guys? Most?
  2. Why does it occur and is more better than less?
  3. Does anyone know who came about this and it’s importance?

1-I am fascinated by this issue. As I can see it, but I wonder if it can be taught or learned! More on that in another post!
2,3- it would appear that Tom House gets credit for identifying this issue and brought it to the forefront. I dont believe anyone has actually refuted the conclusions of the NPA study with another study.

Change my mind on what?

Stand sideways head facing forward feet facing forward and spread your legs. Wider than elbow width if elbows were at shoulder height Try to turn your hips with you heal remaining on the ground.

Why does the heel have to come up? Or foot to roll laces down?

I would like your thoughts to the above questions.