Dick mills kicked me out

General Pitching Topics
#1

Dick mills has offically said that I’m not welcome on his baseball forum because he clash. The main part we clash on is training methods and how to get better. His view on training is that no exercise and workout can increase MPH at all. Also he believes that no explosive training or exercises that helps power out put will help you throw harder.

Quote from dick mills on Training like Tuff Cuff.

[b]"Training will not teach you how to apply more force…only mechanics can do that. And pitching is not about applying more effort into a pitch but is about producing more skilled movements from better timing of all the parts. That will help produce more force.

No matter how hard you try, you will not get that from your strength training program…no matter who designed it, how much they have promised you it would or your hope that it will be the secret for you."[/b]

The fact is the more force you can produce the more you can speed up the body and the more force in a long stride you can produce. Power is very important without a strong body or a weak link in the kinetic chain you will never reach max MPH.

Some times I think he is crazy and doesn’t understnad baseball at all now. He is right about somethings but Now he is going overboard with his training thoughts.

Do you think that you can gain MPH from training explosive and training to use all the muscles in the body?

DICK DOESN’T UNDERSTAND THAT THE MORE EXPLOSVIE YOU ARE THE MORE FORCE YOU CAN APPLY TO A BALL IF YOUR MECHANICS ARE GOOD.

#2

And this is why although Dick Mills was the first resource I learned about pitching from (back in like '98), I do not read anything he writes anymore.

He is a marketer, regardless of what he believes in reality, he is trying to a sell a product to a specific group, and to find his own niche among all the other “throw harder” products.

Not that long ago Dick promoted long toss, and well he used to promote at least medicine ball work, but he seems to be further separating from that as well.

And here is something from Eric Cressey, a very bright mind in the strength training field, who caters quite specifically to ball players now:

I think that is solid evidence in itself, although i could elaborate for hours.

Do not question logic and actual results RIstar just because ol Mills says something, he’s changed his program and what he sells many times over the years, who’s to say it won’t change again.

I do see irony in that I think, not many months ago the whole forum was trying to tell you what you are trying to tell Mills…

#3

Training thoughts never really agreed with him I have distanced my self from him in most area’s. Keep the responces coming about your thoughts.

#4

Hey RiStar what are some other forum websites you frequent besides the dick mills one and this one.

#5

none y?

#6

Seeing stuff like this just makes me respect Steven even more.

Thanks for giving us a place to argue :wink:

#7

Bummer, RISTAR. Sorry to hear you got the boot. Keep chugging along with your training this off-season, my friend. You’ll be happy with the results.

#8

www.eteamz.com

www.baseball-excellence.com

#9

Anyone notice that Dick Mills always changes his ideas and never has continuity in his opinions? That’s one reason not to follow his research.

RIstar this was actually one of your more intelligent posts. Yes you need more explosiveness to throw harder, and you are absoloutely correct that training for explosiveness helps.

Dick Mills booted you because he didn’t want his product having any controversy within the site.

#10

I think Dick Mills is stupid, he never promotes the same thing for more than a year or two, and always picks the most extreme of ideas to generate more interest. Great marketing idea, but in terms of effectiveness, differentiating yourself from everyone else does nothing for nobody.

#11

RIStar
That’s too bad. I’ve been so close to being tossed by him, so many times. I’ve thought I crossed the line a lot lately. I try not to argue with him on his board because it’s his site and he has the right to do just what he wants with it. I typically email him with my disagreements. In one of those, I thought he was going to ban me. I did see it coming with you though. You took him on, right in his own kitchen. I thought I was next back when I took him up on the hips rotating into footplant thing. I just couldn’t take it anymore and I was ready to be banned. He backed down on that one, somewhat. I was surprised. Then, recently, I kind of argued about the role of hip/shoulder separation. I try to keep it from getting into the realm of “argument” and stay in the “debate” kind of discussion. That works here too guy.

Now, about Mills changing his teachings. So, what’s wrong with evolution? Spare me the talk about him just being a salesman. If you were to follow the path he’s taken, it makes sense, knowing how extreme he is when he has an idea. You could see it coming. First, no pushing with the back leg. Militantly so, as Mills does. Then, extend and rotate the back leg and foot to fuel hip rotation … but still no push. Then, he got connected with Brent Rushall. They wrote the book that they believe is the only one based on valid scientific studies. Those inputs lead him to the alleged “fact” that momentum transfer is the fuel for the body to most effectively and efficiently throw the ball. This was confirmation of his “the arm is along for the ride” talk. The body provides the energy that gets transferred into the arm so that it can throw the ball. So, it followed in his mind, and supported by Rushall’s “science”, that the generation of momentum is the key.

So, “explosive pitching” was born.

Then he, as is his tendency, took the momentum generation “fact” and carried it as far as he could. “Momentum Pitching” was born. So was the rhetoric.

This hasn’t been just salesmanship, deceit or anything else as malicious as people like to attribute to him. It was a natural progression for a man who takes ideas to their logical, or illogical, extremes.

Although I do not agree with all of his ideas about mechanics, (saying that the hips don’t rotate into landing and that hip/shoulder separation doesn’t play a role in velo production, for example) I’m not to the point of saying he’s malicious and I’m not in agreement that he can’t have anything of value, just because he has changed his teachings. I think he has some points about training specificity, although he again takes it too far. I think the momentum idea has merit but he, yet again, takes it to extremes.

His rhetoric is distasteful. His bashing of all others is equally distasteful. That’s his marketing strategy. Identical to Nyman and Marshall. Steven, to his credit, doesn’t do this. Neither does Tom House. You gotta respect those guys for that.

#12

Very nice post dm. I have also called dick mills and it’s the person he is rude that makes his personal attacks even worse.

He should have just stuck to explosive pitching because that was good but since Momentum Pitching his company is on the down fall. He takes one little thing and stretches it a mile. For right now I can still post I think BUT he has tryed to discredit anyone from posting on anything I say. Dick Mills all way’s talks about how people should challenge him. I tryed that and proved him wrong but he still stuck by his way’s and try to think of a way to silence me.

I have noticed that dick is now insulting more and more people just because they think in a different way that he thinks could be harm full. with his new training he has just taken back all the years of training advice from Mike Clark and others that have helped him.

God Bless Dick Mills that he wakes up tomorrow and asks god what have I done.

Now that I’m on the right road 70-74 is going to go to 78-80 by next year with hard work.

#13

DM, that was probably the best recap of Mills I have ever read, and the progression of ideas seemingly makes sense.

Just the one thing that always kills me in his salemanship/marketing approach is that he uses all sorts of testemonials and examples (specifically Barry Zito and his son) who developed on a totally different program than what he is selling today. I glanced through the testemonials and a high percentage are from the ideas that he has so distanced himself from now.

The attacking of others and negative marketing strategies seem as if the gurus doing so are afraid, afraid someone may challenge their ideas and they won’t be able to refute them.

That is why I love Steven’s material. He tells you what he thinks and markets it on the quality of the program, not attacking all other baseball theorists, gurus, coaches, etc.
Sometimes it seems Mills spends more time telling everyone else why they are wrong than actually saying what makes him right.

#14

You are 100% right about the idea of talking about why other people are wrong more then he talks about why he is right. He will not even argue with you half the time because I think he knows that he is worng.

The fall of the empire is near the way he is going with his marketing which is bad to begin with.

#15

[quote=“dm59”]RIStar
That’s too bad. I’ve been so close to being tossed by him, so many times. I’ve thought I crossed the line a lot lately. I try not to argue with him on his board because it’s his site and he has the right to do just what he wants with it. I typically email him with my disagreements. In one of those, I thought he was going to ban me. I did see it coming with you though. You took him on, right in his own kitchen. I thought I was next back when I took him up on the hips rotating into footplant thing. I just couldn’t take it anymore and I was ready to be banned. He backed down on that one, somewhat. I was surprised. Then, recently, I kind of argued about the role of hip/shoulder separation. I try to keep it from getting into the realm of “argument” and stay in the “debate” kind of discussion. That works here too guy.

Now, about Mills changing his teachings. So, what’s wrong with evolution? Spare me the talk about him just being a salesman. If you were to follow the path he’s taken, it makes sense, knowing how extreme he is when he has an idea. You could see it coming. First, no pushing with the back leg. Militantly so, as Mills does. Then, extend and rotate the back leg and foot to fuel hip rotation … but still no push. Then, he got connected with Brent Rushall. They wrote the book that they believe is the only one based on valid scientific studies. Those inputs lead him to the alleged “fact” that momentum transfer is the fuel for the body to most effectively and efficiently throw the ball. This was confirmation of his “the arm is along for the ride” talk. The body provides the energy that gets transferred into the arm so that it can throw the ball. So, it followed in his mind, and supported by Rushall’s “science”, that the generation of momentum is the key.

So, “explosive pitching” was born.

Then he, as is his tendency, took the momentum generation “fact” and carried it as far as he could. “Momentum Pitching” was born. So was the rhetoric.

This hasn’t been just salesmanship, deceit or anything else as malicious as people like to attribute to him. It was a natural progression for a man who takes ideas to their logical, or illogical, extremes.

Although I do not agree with all of his ideas about mechanics, (saying that the hips don’t rotate into landing and that hip/shoulder separation doesn’t play a role in velo production, for example) I’m not to the point of saying he’s malicious and I’m not in agreement that he can’t have anything of value, just because he has changed his teachings. I think he has some points about training specificity, although he again takes it too far. I think the momentum idea has merit but he, yet again, takes it to extremes.

His rhetoric is distasteful. His bashing of all others is equally distasteful. That’s his marketing strategy. Identical to Nyman and Marshall. Steven, to his credit, doesn’t do this. Neither does Tom House. You gotta respect those guys for that.[/quote]

Great post DM, and I wasn’t trying to rag on him for evolution over time. I just feel that he takes his ideas, which are based on science, and stretches them to such an extreme where they no longer resemble anything else. Its smart, because If I’m looking to gain velocity, I’m not going to read the 99 guys report’s who say LONGTOSS, I’m going to look at the one who doesn’t advocate it. I think that saying he doesn’t build his ideas around a certain level of marketability is silly, he tries to differentiate. Its not bad, but you have to back yourself up alot if your going to work outside of the box, not just with one or two kids who hit growth spurts and gained mph. I’m not saying his program won’t work, I’m saying it might not work any better than anyone elses, but he thinks it will.

#16

The people that I feel really bad about are the people that fall in to his new MP pitching and don’t get drafted because scouts will not draft a Momentum Pitcher {Mp}. Most of the people are like Blind mice following the leader that is Dick Mills. He has found people that want the magic bullet because that’s how most found the site. He claims there’s no magic bullet but Mp is his magic Bullet.

My last post on that site if he decides to ban me will go like this.

Fact is the sports medicine Field has proved that becoming more explosive helps MPH. I have all MLB organizations and all Sports Medicine Doctors on my side that can contribute more power out put to more MPH.

#17

i’ve read mills cover to cover. he emphasizes a long stride (at least as long as your height) and getting from your back foot (post or rubber foot), to your front foot (stride or plant foot) as quickly as possible. the quickest way to do this is to genterate as much force (or momentum) as possible. he hates weighted ball programs and advocates the law of specificity of training (the drill must exactly duplicate the position and plane of a pitching delivery to be maximally effective {which makes sense}.

it’s easy to determine what works for you. get a radar gun and try it both ways. which way produces the best result. then get a full running start and throw the ball. is it faster? the answer should be yes. and the faster you run then throw, the harder you normally throw. it seems to me this is an example of getting from your back foot to you front foot as fast as possible or explosively. pitching with good mechanics is an athletic movement requiring the production of force and momentum, speed and some degree of strength and power to transfer the force you generate into the baseball as efficiently as possible. to do this you must create a kinetic chain from the rear foot, through the body, and into the hand and ball as continuous and efficient as possible. that’s about it.

sometimes the gurus get in heated discussions over terms and terminology. use what works and makes sense. sometimes you will find them saying virtually the same thing in some different terms. that’s when you know something is important.

if you want a great simple explaination of pitching from one of the best read the first chapter of “sandy koufax: a lefty’s legacy”. he talks extensively about the position and wedging of the back foot against the rubber. he uses the ball of the rear foot to push with all he’s got. they usually don’t ague with a espected hall of famer. koufax was a teamate of jim brewer, my college pitching coach and they taught many of the same dodger lessons.

anyway, the other thing is don’t take it personally when they fuss at you. that’s just something they do when someone doesn’t agree with them totally. take what they give you and use what works for you. sometimes it takes a while. i didn’t know koufax worked with oral hershiser by taking the ball of foot cleat out of his spikes to have him feel the proper position of the back foot and generating and controlling force and momentum. koufax’s stuff is really something to think about.

good luck.

dusty delso
dustydelso@hotmail.com

#18

Great post, DM!

Evolution must continue. Otherwise, we stop learning. That is, unless we’ve already figured out everything there is to know. :roll: Now, flip-flopping or changing one’s ideas for marketing reasons alone is probably questionable. But changes that truly follow a path of evolution and refinement are what we should expect and even demand from the “gurus”.

#19

My assistant pointed me to this thread after he got a notification of my name via Google alerts. Couldn’t resist…

Simple, yet easy way to handle this is to go to the research.

From:

Derenne C, Ho KW, Murphy JC. Effects of general, special, and specific resistance training on throwing velocity in baseball: a brief review. J Strength Cond Res. 2001 Feb;15(1):148-56.

[quote]Practical Applications

Throwing velocity can be increased by resistance training. A rationale for general, special, and specific resistance training to increase throwing velocity has been presented. The following findings and recommendations relevant to strength and conditioning specialists and pitching coaches can be useful from the review of literature.

-Throwing velocity for high school and college players can be increased with general resistance training. The throwing-training protocol should be conducted over a minimum training period of 8 weeks using upper-body core exercises and a dumbbell shoulder routine.

-As the baseball player’s general muscular strength and throwing velocity adequately increases during the off-season, he should proceed into a special upper-body power throwing velocity training program. The power-training protocol should consist of “exploding” lightweight loads of 30–50% of 1RM during the 6–8 training weeks.

-Specific resistance training consisting of light- and heavyweighted baseballs may be the single best method to increasing throwing velocity, provided the athlete follows the appropriate training protocol. Before a weighted implement training program commences, an athlete should participate in a general total-body isotonic resistance program followed by an upper-body power-training regimen.

-In order to produce the maximum training results, selection of appropriate throwing training exercises must be based on the athlete’s chronological age, training experience, and skill level.[/quote]

Specific studies they referenced:

Bagonzi, J.A. The effects of graded weighted baseballs, free weight training, and simulative isometric exercise on the velocity of a thrown baseball. Master’s thesis, Indiana University. 1978.

Brose, D.E., and D.L. Hanson. Effects of overload training on velocity and accuracy of throwing. Res. Q. 38:528–533. 1967.

Jackson, J.B. The effects of weight training on the velocity of a thrown baseball. Master’s thesis, Central Michigan University,. 1994.

Lachowetz, T., J. Evon, and J. Pastiglione. The effects of an upper-body strength program on intercollegiate baseball throwing velocity. J. Strength Cond. Res. 12:116–119. 1998.

Logan, G.A., W.C. McKinney, and W. Rowe. Effect of resistance through a throwing range of motion on the velocity of a baseball. Percept. Motor Skills. 25:55–58. 1966.

Newton, R.U., and K.P. McEvoy. Baseball throwing velocity: A comparison of medicine ball training and weight training. J. Strength Cond. Res. 8:198–203. 1994.

Potteiger, J.A., H.N. Williford, D.L. Blessing, and J. Smidt. Effect of two training methods on improving baseball performance variables. J. Appl. Sport Sci. Res. 6:2–6. 1992.

Sullivan, J.W. The effects of three experimental training factors upon baseball throwing velocity and selected strength measures. Doctoral dissertation, Indiana University,. 1970.

Swangard, T.M. The effect of isotonic weight training programs on the development of bat swinging, throwing, and running ability of college baseball players. Master’s thesis, University of Oregon,. 1965.

Thompson, C.W., and E.T. Martin. Weight training and baseball throwing speed. J. Assoc. Phys. Mental Rehabil. 19:194–196. 1965.

They also have a table that summarizes 26 studies that examined the effect of different strength protocols on throwing velocity, and 22 of the 26 showed increases over controls who just threw.

The saddest part is that the training programs they outlined were crap - lots of 3x10 with light dumbbells and therabands. If archaic stuff like this works, just imagine what good S&C can do.

#20

In my opinion, the “moving faster” thing is an oversimplification. Mills claims that all energy is generated during the stride and then transferred up the chain. There is no additional energy created after the stride. Thus, moving faster through your stride is the only way to maximize the energy available to be put into the ball. Of course, you must have good mechanics and timing in order to not waste any of that energy so I guess there is an implication that you must also have good mechanics and timing. I think Mills should mention that.

Any way, not all of us agree with Mills’ claim about where energy gets created. Some of us believe there is muscular contribution along the way. After all, there are pitchers who throw hard without moving fast. How do they do it? Tom House has a concept called “pitcher signatures” where a signature consists of the rotational velocities plotted over time of three links in the kinetic chain: hips, shoulders, and throwing hand. House and the NPA capture pitcher signatures when they do their motion analysis. In the signatures I have seen, each subsequent link in the kinetic chain reaches a higher velocity than the previous link. So, the shoulders reach a higher velocity than the hips, and the hand reaches a higher velocity than the shoulders. How could this be if no additional energy was being added along the way?

Of course, if there is muscular contribution throughout the delivery, then it stands to reason that proper strength and flexibility are needed to maximize velocity.