Dice-k training and why pitching count isn't smart


#1

Dice-k training is my type of training but a little less pitches

From ESPN THE MAG
Japanese import put in the equivalent of heavy lifting for this early in spring training: 80 pitches from flat ground, 50 pitches off the bullpen mound and 50 pitches of live batting practice.

I think Dice-K isn’t weight lifting I think he’s doing more Plyometrics and YOGA maybe? The Japan pitchers do more exercises to get the small muscles strong I’m pretty sure.

We need to all look at are training methods here in the USA because they aren’t good we THROW LESS WEIGHT LIFT MORE. This isn’t the way to do it because the sport is about pitching off a mound to a batter.

I think we need to get a strong base then do a workout that has YOGA and Plyometrics and things that are essential to pitching. Also we need to look at the pitch count. The young kids need to be on one but after they are done with growing we need to start to train like the Japan pitchers. Before they are done growing they should still throw a little more while working on good mechanics. More pitches with less weight lifting and more focus on sports specific training.

The pitch count and why it’s stupid?

If you train your arm to only throw less then you do in a game then you will not be able to gain need stamina And durability.
If you throw more pitches it trains the arm to react when you are tired better. And decreases the chance of injury because the arm will get use to the load on the arm.

I wouldn’t throw 250 pitch bullpens but more like 100 pitch bullpens and then A pitcher can get his arm use to throwing that 110 pitch game he needs to be able to do every 5 days.


#2

i agree with throwing more pitches to build up endurance, but does every single post of yours have to involve the phrase "build a strong base and then do yoga and plyometrics"to paraphrase.


#3

I think the pitch count thing makes sense.

Dont go back to ths yoga/plys vs Weightlifting again. we Dont need another 6 page argument on it.

But like i said, the pitch count makes sense.


#4

what is so good about the pitch count do you think the dominacan players and all them used it? And look at them all the kids that come from there throw hard and they throw alot of the time to.

O and the training part about weight lifting do you really think the dominican kids weight lift? I don’t think so I think they THROW THROW THROW more and more. Some times 2 game in a day. So to say they needed the weight lifting is BS because do they have the state of the art gym the can go to No they are to poor. SO they Throw.


#5

first of all, i was agreeing with you, i meant what YOU SAID about the pitch count made sense.

Second, how do you know exactly what the Domincan have and dont have, and how they train?

And,

In 2000 (i couldnt find a more recent statistic) 71 of 750 players players on MLB rosters were from the Dominican Republic. Now, think of how many were pitchers. The percentage that was already only approx. 9% of baseball is now even smaller. So even if they DONT train with any sort of weightlifting because, as you put it, they dont have the technology, then that isnt even enough to prove your theory correct. I guarentee that of the 90+% of Major leaguers not from the Dominican, at least 70% does/did weighttraining.

Also, even if you WERE correct. That jus because that 9% didnt do ANY weight training, and they got to where they are by just throwing, which you say shows that weightlifting shouldnt be used for pitching, then that woul mean that neither shoul Yoga and Plyometrics and whatever.


#6

even so, having almost 10% of major leaguers be from a country that has a population about 30 times smaller than that of the U.S. is disproportionately high.

i’ve always wondered why it’s the dominican republic that turns up so many lanky pitchers who can throw absolute heat (my all time favorite pitcher is pedro martinez). and though i’m not gonna argue about weight lifting, i think it must have to do with the fact that these kids just play ball all day everyday.

the strange thing about the japanese is that they don’t produce a percentage of MLB players anywhere close to that of the DR, and japan is a HUGE country. i do love dice-k and think that he’s awesome, but besides him there has never been a great japanese pitcher in the MLB.

i just wish i knew why so many great pitchers come from the DR and what they do


#7

[quote=“RIstar”]

O and the training part about weight lifting do you really think the dominican kids weight lift? I don’t think so I think they THROW THROW THROW more and more. Some times 2 game in a day. So to say they needed the weight lifting is BS because do they have the state of the art gym the can go to No they are to poor. SO they Throw.[/quote]

No they work unlike people in America kids growing up have to actually work.

[quote=“Wikipedia”]

agriculture remains the most important sector in terms of domestic consumption and is in second place (behind mining) in terms of export earnings[/quote]

[quote=“Samo_292”]

he strange thing about the japanese is that they don’t produce a percentage of MLB players anywhere close to that of the DR, and japan is a HUGE country. i do love dice-k and think that he’s awesome, but besides him there has never been a great japanese pitcher in the MLB. [/quote]

You can’t say that Dice-K is the only great Japanese pitcher because Ching Ming Wang of the Yankees has a lower ERA than Dice-K. But Dice-K has 3 more games in than Wang. Dice-K is 9-5 Wang is 7-4. Very similar records but it seems that Dice-K is more efficient. Also, Japan has is a very big baseball country and because they have so many people they are able to have a popular baseball program like the MLB in the U.S. DR’s isn’t nearly as big as Japans that’s why they come here.


#8

Isn’t chin ming wang Taiwanese(Chinese)? but there has been a few good Japanese pitchers: Hideo Nomo(123-109, ERA-4.13, 1915k) and Tomo Ohka( 4.04 ERA)to name a couple.
They weren’t necessarily superstars, but an era around 4 is still pretty good.


#9

yes your right Wang isn’t Japanese but there are some good Japanese pitchers. Like I said most of them stay in Japan because Japan has good baseball.


#10

Well you have to remember, among all the things he does to train and stay healthy, he is simply a freak of nature. Its not his training that allows him to throw 150+ pitches every day, no training can teach your arm to handle that. He just has an arm that is unusually good at taking the damage that pitching puts it through. I am not saying that the training doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with it. I’m just saying that throwing that much, hell I don’t care, you can throw twice as much as him, but your still not going to be able to throw 40 innings in 9 days like he did in Highschool.

I agree though, and I have adapted a more japanese type throwing program in that I throw and longtoss every day, before, after I pitch. Subsequently, I rarely have soreness after I pitch, and generally on my second recovery day after a start I will throw 100+ pitch BP sessions to my brothers baseball team.


#11

When my son had a growth related back injury we were able to get information on the latest treatments from Japan. Why were they available there? Because there are so many baseball related overuse injuries in Japan. They destroy pitchers in Japan and only the most durable survive, but even amongst the survivors DiceK is the exception. Almost anyone who tries to follow DiceK’s example is going to end up with a serious arm injury.


#12

Excellent comments from Coach Baker and CADad.

These types of discussions almost always involve some confusion between pitching and throwing. We must be very careful to accurately distinguish between pitching loads and throwing loads.

Pitching loads and training regimens of pro pitchers aren’t necessarily appropriate for the rest of us who have other jobs or responsibilities besides baseball and can’t invest the time that the pros can. Furthermore, it is risky to not limit the loads for young kids with immature skeletal systems (e.g. open growth plates).


#13

What research has found that they are killing there pitchers?


#14

Just word of mouth from my relatives in Japan, where their 9yo is going through 5 hour a day practices, and the preponderance of research studies on baseball related injuries, especially overuse. When I was looking for research studies on the use of Low Intensity Ultrasound for treating Spondylolysis the only place I was able to get it was by having a relative pick it up from the Japan Pediatric Orthopedic Association. They had treated a large number of young patients from a relatively small area, all of whom picked up the condition as a result of baseball overuse.


#15

I’ve read that Korea is even worse, they have the kids making 300-400 throws a day. It is very bad though, in the eastern nations like Japan and Korea, its extremely competetive and they kill pitchers that way. Dice-K, as hard as he works is as I said before a freak of nature who could pitch 350 innings in a season and have a long, fruitful 20 year career.


#16

Now Im not saying for the little ones that growth plates are open to be doing this but the more mature pitchers should be pitching more to train for a 100 pitch game.


#17

Agreed on that, I think that younger kids need to throw more too. Most kids on my brothers little league team throw 2 times a week, once at practice, and once at the game. Throwing every day is fine, even for young ones. Its just that DiceK pitches 3-4 times a week, and thats ridiculous.