Curveballs put the same stress on the arm

General Pitching Topics
#1

What do you think of this:

http://www.bones.arizona.edu/Articles/SM JC April 2006/Fleisig, GS Article.pdf

It says that the curveball puts the same amount of stress into the pitching arm of a collegiate pitcher.

“The similar magnitude in elbow and shoulder kinetics between the fastball and curveball implies that throwing curveballs is no more dangerous for the college pitcher than is throwing fastballs.”

And it also says that the change-up is the safest pitch to throw:

“The change-up appears to be the least stressful and safest pitch to throw.”

What do you all think? Let’s share some opinions.

#2

i think if you take care of your arm with the light weight exercises, you ice your arm after you throw, you don’t overthrow, overtrain your arm i think you can throw whatever pitch you want

I personally think the screwball is the most owkward pitch to throw and that it’s the most dangerous but i’ve read here and there that pronating is more natural. I’m not a scientist but I do know my body and i know it just feels wrong to try and pronate when I throw

#3

Have you ever thrown a football with a tight spiral?

If so, then you’ve experienced what hard pronation feels like.

#4

[quote=“Chris O’Leary”]Have you ever thrown a football with a tight spiral?
If so, then you’ve experienced what hard pronation feels like.[/quote]
Chris,

You’re mistaken. Throwing a football with a tight spiral is very much like throwing a conventional slider, and neither is thrown with pronation, let alone hard pronation.

#5

I think that is true but only if you throw the curve without any twisting during the forward acceleration of the arm. That is, the hand/wrist needs to be in the suppinated position when it starts forward. Unfortunately, the forward motion of the arm happens so quickly that it is next to impossible to verify with the naked eye that a pitcher is, in fact, throwing the curve correctly. Therein lies the concern with young kids throwing curves.

#6

I think that is true but only if you throw the curve without any twisting during the forward acceleration of the arm. That is, the hand/wrist needs to be in the suppinated position when it starts forward. Unfortunately, the forward motion of the arm happens so quickly that it is next to impossible to verify with the naked eye that a pitcher is, in fact, throwing the curve correctly. Therein lies the concern with young kids throwing curves.[/quote]

I have a video of a clinic, which I downloaded on the Internet, that, I think that the name of the coach is Kim Jones.
When he is teaching the guys how to throw the curveball he teaches them to think fastball all the way, and even says that when their hands are at the head’s level they should have their hands just like when they are throwing a curveball.
Then when you stretch your arm to throw the ball you should reach the position and then, supinate your arm to get the ball the correct spin.
So he says that the pitcher should have the palm facing up/foward when their hands passes their heads.

#7

[quote=“KreGg”]I have a video of a clinic, which I downloaded on the Internet, that, I think that the name of the coach is Kim Jones.
When he is teaching the guys how to throw the curveball he teaches them to think fastball all the way, and even says that when their hands are at the head’s level they should have their hands just like when they are throwing a curveball.
Then when you stretch your arm to throw the ball you should reach the position and then, supinate your arm to get the ball the correct spin.
So he says that the pitcher should have the palm facing up/foward when their hands passes their heads.[/quote]

That sounds dangerous to me. Tom House says the danger in throwing curves is the rapid change in direction from supination to pronation. He says that if you start off supinated, then all rotation will be strictly in the pronation direction and that makes throwing curves much more safe. He does NOT say that throwing curves in this manner is the same as throwing a fastball because there is 180 degrees of rotation instead of just 90 degrees of rotation. He also stresses limiting the number of curves thrown.

#8

[quote=“Roger”][quote=“KreGg”]I have a video of a clinic, which I downloaded on the Internet, that, I think that the name of the coach is Kim Jones.
When he is teaching the guys how to throw the curveball he teaches them to think fastball all the way, and even says that when their hands are at the head’s level they should have their hands just like when they are throwing a curveball.
Then when you stretch your arm to throw the ball you should reach the position and then, supinate your arm to get the ball the correct spin.
So he says that the pitcher should have the palm facing up/foward when their hands passes their heads.[/quote]

That sounds dangerous to me. Tom House says the danger in throwing curves is the rapid change in direction from supination to pronation. He says that if you start off supinated, then all rotation will be strictly in the pronation direction and that makes throwing curves much more safe. He does NOT say that throwing curves in this manner is the same as throwing a fastball because there is 180 degrees of rotation instead of just 90 degrees of rotation. He also stresses limiting the number of curves thrown.[/quote]

Yeah that makes sense to me. I have Tom House’s The Pitching Edge Video on a VHS and I have followed some of his drills and tips.
I have a curveball that I rarely throw it. I, actually, threw it for the first time before even knowing how to throw a changeup.
Now I’m trying to develop a circle change. I think I learned, the hard way though, that no matter how hard you throw, hitters will catch up to your fastball and you will need to change velocity.

On that same video, the clinic I told you, the coach there says when you are throwing the change-up you would like to throw the outside part of it (explaining that you should pronate and throw the circle change with your hands facing more toward 3B, for a right-handed). Is this a good way to throw it?

Also, how about the changeup being the less stressful pitch on the arm? I thought it was the fastball, exactly because you throw it square to the plate and don’t really have to do those things like overpronating or supinating etc.

Thanks.

#9

[quote=“KreGg”]I have a curveball that I rarely throw it. I, actually, threw it for the first time before even knowing how to throw a changeup.
Now I’m trying to develop a circle change. I think I learned, the hard way though, that no matter how hard you throw, hitters will catch up to your fastball and you will need to change velocity.[/quote]
Relying on just throwing hard works at younger ages. But as you get older, hitters will definitely catch up. So you are absolutely correct that you need to be able to change speeds.

Yes, that is how Tom house still teaches the change-up. It’s thrown with the hand/wrist pronated (i.e. palm out). Pronating is what takes speed off of the pitch. It also allows you to impart rotation on the ball to give your change-up some movement.

In general, stress on the arm is caused by two things: force and twisting. I’ll talk about twisting in a moment but for now I’ll assume twisting is not a factor. So, the change-up is less stressful than a fastball for two reasons. The first reason is that the amount of force endured by the arm is less. The fastball position is the strength position so the amount of force generated is the greatest. When you supinate or pronate, you simply can’t generate as much force. (That’s why the curve and change-up are off-speed pitches.) The second reason is that when throwing a palm-out change-up, the pronated hand/wrist is already rotated in the same direction the arm will rotate after release. If you look at pictures of pitchers’ arms after they release the ball, their arms are always in a pronated position. This is true regardless of which pitch they threw. The change-up puts the arm in a position that’s closer to the post-release position than does a fastball so there’s less twisting of the arm. Some will claim that throwing from a pronated position is awkward and uncomfortable and therefore must be more stressful. All I can say about that is that you should only pronate as far as your own comfort level dictates.

Now, let’s get back to that twisting thing. Twisting is generally an issue when the twisting is in the supinating direction. Twisting while throwing a baseball is what’s dangerous. The reason is that you tend to start off with fastball mechanics and arm speed. Then you throw in the twist. Finally, after you release the ball, the arm changes direction and pronates. So, the combination of fastball arm speed (and, therefore, fastball force) along with the twisting motion followed by a rapid change of direction in the rotation of the arm (did you know the arm decelerates in half the time it takes to accelerate?) all works together to destroy your elbow.

#10

Thanks very much to share with us your pitching knowledge Roger.

I don’t understand why the slider is so hard on the elbow/arm. I thought that you should just throw it like you would throw a fastball but with your fingers not on the center of the ball.
What makes it so hard on the elbow/shoulder/arm?

Also what would be considered the most stressful pitch? I have seen that the screwball would be the toughest, but also the splitter, slider.

#11

[quote=“KreGg”]Thanks very much to share with us your pitching knowledge Roger.

I don’t understand why the slider is so hard on the elbow/arm. I thought that you should just throw it like you would throw a fastball but with your fingers not on the center of the ball.
What makes it so hard on the elbow/shoulder/arm?[/quote]
According to Tom House (once again), what makes the slider so hard on the arm is that when you throw it you are partially supinated and that means you have some amount of rotation in your hand/wrist yet it’s not full supination so you’re able to throw it with closer to fastball force. Remember, stress on the arm is due to twist and force. If you add in a twist while applying fastball force, you’re in trouble. That’s what makes the slider the most stressful.

BTW, Tom House says that a slider is thrown using half the amount of supination of a curve but that thumb and middle finger always cut the ball in half regardless of which pitch is thrown (except for the splitter - see below). To throw different pitches, he recommends varying degrees of pronation/supination as well as varying seam orientation but he does NOT recommend holding the ball off-center. Thumb and middle finger always cut the ball in half.

I believe the slider is considered the most stressful pitch. A screwball is simply a palm-out fastball. It is thrown from a pronated position using a fastball grip. The arm is already rotated in the same direction it will want to rotate after release so all rotation will be in the same direction. Tom House recommends that if you don’t have the flexibility in your hand to use the circle or “ok” or “C” grip for your change-up, then you can substitute the screwball.

Regarding the splitter, House says that the only problem with it is that people fail to keep the thumb centered underneath the first and second fingers. Instead they let the thumb creep up the side of the ball towards the index finger and that somehow leads to twisting. He claims keeping the thumb centered under the split fingers helps you stay honest and not twist. I imagine House has seen enough video to make these conclusions.

#12

Just my two cents worth on the subject:
Actually, the slider, when thrown correctly, is easier on the arm and shoulder than almost any other pitch one can think of. I remember when I learned to throw it; my incredible pitching coach told me “Throw it like a curve, but roll your wrist, don’t snap it.” He showed me the off-center grip—neither two-seam nor four-seam but somewhere in between, with both index and middle fingers close together and the middle finger just touching one seam—and demonstrated the wrist action, first in slow motion and then at normal speed. Then he handed me the ball and said “Go ahead, try it.” In about ten minutes I got the hang of it, and because I was a natural sidearmer I immediately felt comfortable with it. And you can change up on it too.
In fact, just about any pitch you have in your repertoire can be turned into a nice little changeup. The trick is NOT to grip the ball as if you were trying to squeeze the juice out of it!—I’ve seen pitchers try to do this, and what happens is the ball squirts out of the hand and drops to the ground with a resounding plop, not to mention puts a terrific strain on the tendons and ligaments of the hand. ALSO—I would recommend that you steer clear of the screwball. Remember what happened to Carl Hubbell? He threw that pitch almost exclusively, with the result that when he stood with his arms at his sides the palm of his left hand faced out. Ouch.
Whatever pitch you use, you have to throw it with the same arm motion and the same arm speed as the fast ball (I’m assuming, of course, that you have one). When I was playing we often had to face a pitcher who had a beautiful slow curve but who was constantly telegraphing it; he would twitch his elbgow in a peculiar way when he was going to throw it, and he slowed his arm speed, which is a no-no in any pitcher’s book—and we blasted this guy from here to Timbuktu and back! 8)

#13

you must dont play football
you got to pronate to get a spiral

in the louisville slugger pitching book it says “no pitch thrown correctly puts any more strain on the arm than another”

look how long roger clemens and steve carlton threw and randy johnson has thrown the slider
fernando valenzuela and some other dude(not hubbel) threw the screwball their whole career

[quote]I don’t understand why the slider is so hard on the elbow/arm. I thought that you should just throw it like you would throw a fastball but with your fingers not on the center of the ball.
[/quote]
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