Cubs injured pitchers


#1

Steve do you have an explanation for the high number of pitching injuries that the Cubs have had? What do you advocate that they are not doing correctly?


#2

[quote=“Coach Bear33”]Steve do you have an explanation for the high number of pitching injuries that the Cubs have had? What do you advocate that they are not doing correctly?[/quote]Kerry Wood’s injuries come mainly from his younger years. He used to throw closed, with his left foot facing third base, which caused a lot of wear and tear on his elbow and shoulder. Prior, you could most likely put this on his arm rotation, and possibly his landing position, his knee isint bent at all. I hear their working on this in the offseason, and expect him to not drop his forearms, creating the M motion which is so stressful on the arm.


#3

I hear from folks that both are over-use issues, the line drive on the elbow of Prior didn’t help any. Keep in mind that over the past several years my favorite team has shown what could only be dismial scouting success high-lighted by moments of brilliance, Jenkins, Maddox, Zambrano. Remember the stinkin Trib. has a great PR machine and everyone is the second coming. They make heaping huge gobs of cash but make no “real” comitment to win. Easy to buy the “One” guy and fill the stands than make a long term decision to build. Dave Kingman, Sammy Sosa, now D. Lee and ARAM, get the poor fans a hero, lean hard on the last “almost” and there you have my Cubbies. Remember they traded for a lame Dempster, drag in a few guys that were “almosts” that’ll help too.
I’d bet that looking at top to bottom drafts that the Cubs have no more injury than anyone else…It’s just that everyone else over-comes it.
This is a team under McPhail that was banking on Corey Patterson as the “future of the team”, I think that my sons HS coach could do better and I don’t care much for him.
All that said…ya know they got Delarossa from the Rangers? Wait til next year…Dumb as it sounds I’ll be watchin.


#4

[quote=“jdfromfla”]I hear from folks that both are over-use issues, the line drive on the elbow of Prior didn’t help any. Keep in mind that over the past several years my favorite team has shown what could only be dismial scouting success high-lighted by moments of brilliance, Jenkins, Maddox, Zambrano. Remember the stinkin Trib. has a great PR machine and everyone is the second coming. They make heaping huge gobs of cash but make no “real” comitment to win. Easy to buy the “One” guy and fill the stands than make a long term decision to build. Dave Kingman, Sammy Sosa, now D. Lee and ARAM, get the poor fans a hero, lean hard on the last “almost” and there you have my Cubbies. Remember they traded for a lame Dempster, drag in a few guys that were “almosts” that’ll help too.
I’d bet that looking at top to bottom drafts that the Cubs have no more injury than anyone else…It’s just that everyone else over-comes it.
This is a team under McPhail that was banking on Corey Patterson as the “future of the team”, I think that my sons HS coach could do better and I don’t care much for him.
All that said…ya know they got Delarossa from the Rangers? Wait til next year…Dumb as it sounds I’ll be watchin.[/quote]

JD you keep bringing up Mcphail, He hasn’t been the GM in 5 yrs . Jim Hendry is calling the shots, and yeah they have stunk but he also has made some good moves also, trading hundley, getting A- Ram, D-Lee, Barrett, Dempster, demp had a bad yr this yr last year he was awesome, he will rebound along with a killer pen. Howry, Eyre, Cotts. Now is Hendry trying to save his job YES!. That’s why they will spend money, and for once try to get a winner. Remember they were only five short outs away from going to series in 2003 Injuries and bad luck can’t blame the GM for that. Did you see the yr Patterson had? not to shabby (Baltimore) he has talent. maybe his bro will pan out for the cubs they have him.


#5

McPhail resigned at the end of last season as the team president. He took what was the best farm system in MLB with the Twins and ruined it, he is a poor baseball exec. and I am being nice about it. No what I say about him is derived from comments made by ex-major leaguers, because I’ve always been curious about the strange malady that afflicts my team so I ask when I can, who I can.
Hendry stayed because he is quality, he’s spent the cash and has the "right idea’…he builds and gets the Free Agents
You would be hard pressed to find flaws in who he has brought to the team…shoot starting with Dusty. As for the 5 outs…I’ll say it again, the Marlins were a team of destiny, it could have been an out with an 0-2 count and the Marlins were going to win that. But Dusty made the choice in leaving Prior in that game.
As for Corey Patterson, he was given an extended learning experience in Chicago that nobodty else would have (He “was” McPhails man), so he got better and joined a long list of people that left the Cubs to become good or great…Start with Lou Brock and look up Hooten, Madlock, Maddux, Stone, Palmero…blahblahblah it hurts…it burns, must stop, too painful…
Starting pitching wins world series so Hendry’s in my opinion got to pick up at least 2 that can win 15 games…you bet I’ll be sitting on the edge of my seat (I hope he re-signs Greg because of his consistancy and fire…and the fact that I think he still has many wins in him). Whoop de dooo spring training is coming up quickly! :smiley:


#6

[quote=“jdfromfla”]McPhail resigned at the end of last season as the team president. He took what was the best farm system in MLB with the Twins and ruined it, he is a poor baseball exec. and I am being nice about it. No what I say about him is derived from comments made by ex-major leaguers, because I’ve always been curious about the strange malady that afflicts my team so I ask when I can, who I can.
Hendry stayed because he is quality, he’s spent the cash and has the "right idea’…he builds and gets the Free Agents
You would be hard pressed to find flaws in who he has brought to the team…shoot starting with Dusty. As for the 5 outs…I’ll say it again, the Marlins were a team of destiny, it could have been an out with an 0-2 count and the Marlins were going to win that. But Dusty made the choice in leaving Prior in that game.
As for Corey Patterson, he was given an extended learning experience in Chicago that nobodty else would have (He “was” McPhails man), so he got better and joined a long list of people that left the Cubs to become good or great…Start with Lou Brock and look up Hooten, Madlock, Maddux, Stone, Palmero…blahblahblah it hurts…it burns, must stop, too painful…
Starting pitching wins world series so Hendry’s in my opinion got to pick up at least 2 that can win 15 games…you bet I’ll be sitting on the edge of my seat (I hope he re-signs Greg because of his consistancy and fire…and the fact that I think he still has many wins in him). Whoop de dooo spring training is coming up quickly! :D[/quote]

As team president last season but wasn’t GM he quit that the start of 2002 season. I know the list and yes is painful, but I do try to reason with the glass half full, and yes Patterson was god awful and I couldn’t wait to run his a__ out of town. Yes I agree go get some more arms is Zito even a possiblity or is that just a pipe dream and who plays cf Soriano he was a clown in left.


#7

Well thats how Hendry is going to sink or swim, many many teams have gotten creative with deals, Jason Schmidt is out there and so is Maddux (Could maybe get him for much less cash and then grab a Suppan, or say a healthy Andy Pettite). See I think the mistake is to blow your wad on a big #1, you already have a number 1 starter in Zambrano, get some strength on those 3rd starts in a series and give the Holy Bull an extra day with a good 4th starter and a couple of young arms for the 5th. Remember it’s a long 162 games and even if Carlos and Barry win 20 thats only 40 and that equals last place.
Dude, my glass is always half full, I’m a Cubs fan…you just wait til next year!!! :smiley:
I think the OF will be Murton, Jones and Soriano in left, he was competent and face it he will never be a Jr., Griffey or Matthews but the Cubs need offense, it would not surprise me to see him play 2nd again and the Cubs trade someyoung guys for a good CF.


#8

Seeing how I am certified by Tom House and the NPA, and since everyone and their grandma points at Mark Prior when they want to take a jab at House, I asked the folks at the NPA about Prior. I believe I’ve posted this here before but they told me that Prior’s problems started due to overuse while he was under someone else’s watch (I don’t know who - maybe his college coach?). Specifically, they said he was overused according to the pitcher abuse points metric (now called p-cubed) created, I believe, by the folks over at Baseball Prospectus. Now, I realize this could all be just a story but I have no reason to believe it is.

But there are those who choose to blame his problems on other things without really knowing. Maybe that’s because it gives the a way to take those jabs at House.


#9

[i][b]pitcher abuse points metric (now called p-cubed).

Roger you just cannot lay out a theory of that nature without a definative explaination as to what you are eluding. Maybe even just start a thread to fully cover it.
Pretty Please! :wink: [/b][/i]


#10

I don’t the think the “pitcher injury” problem is limited to the Cubs. There are a bunch of big league teams that have had problems keeping pitchers healthy recently.

But I think the reason there are so many injuries today is the emphasis on weight training. In the “olden days” – when pitchers pitched complete games, had fewer arm injuries, etc. – pitchers did things “on the field” to enhance their skill. They threw more, they pitched more.

Today, “practicing pitching” more times than not means going to the weight room and working out. On-field skill development is taking a back seat to the weight room.

In college, for instance, my teammates and I spent as much time in the weight room as we did on the field. I saw that trend in major league baseball, too, when I was in the Cubs organization.

That’s fine and good. Working out has its place in baseball pitching. In fact, at no time in the history of baseball have the players been better “athletes.”

But while they’re becoming incredible “athletes,” they’re not developing as “pitchers.” And as many of you know, no matter how hard you work out in the weight room, it doesn’t train a pitcher for handling the workload of pitching like throwing and pitching does.

So injuries happen – because pitchers aren’t perpared to pitch. (They’re prepared to be super athletes.) Instead of calling them “overuse” injuries, they probably should be called “not properly trained” injuries.

Prior and Wood are more of an example of “not properly trained” injuries than anything else. They’re great athletes. Physically strong. Could lift a house. Great work ethics (I actually trained with Prior on numerous occasions, and he was a heck of an athlete).

But I often wonder if their “pitching training” was set up to help them become better “pitchers” or better “athletes”? There may have been a imbalance there, with more emphasis on the “athlete” part. And the Cubs may still be looking for that balance, as many teams are.

Bottom line: Until coaches/players/organizations strike a balance between developing “pitchers” on the field and developing “athletes” in the weight room, I think injuries will continue to rise because there’s just far too much emphasis on the “athlete” aspect of training.

If you look at the difference between pitchers today and those from pre1980s, the “weight room aspect” is the only difference. The game of pitching itself essentially hasn’t changed in over 100 years.


#11

Right on to that Steve.!!! Great post!.
I’d point to Maddux and say…not a body builder but yow!!! what a pitcher!! And not nearly but totally arm injury free in 20 years, one other point , you never see anyone point to him and say “he’s a freak of nature” like say… The Rocket or your buddy Farnsworth… but the chances are good to excellent that that old man will pitch 200+ innings, walk way less than 1 per, very possibly win 15 and top it off with a gold glove next year…heck with run support he’ll have a smattering of CG’s…injury free
Why do we look at anyone else to learn the art. :shock:
Present company excluded of course :oops:


#12

[quote=“jdfromfla”][i][b]pitcher abuse points metric (now called p-cubed).

Roger you just cannot lay out a theory of that nature without a definative explaination as to what you are eluding. Maybe even just start a thread to fully cover it.
Pretty Please! :wink: [/b][/i][/quote]

Done! :smiley:


#13

Everyone knows Maddux doesn’t throw hard. But I’ve heard that he is capable of throwing harder than he does - that he can hit 90 - but that he only throws as hard as he needs to. Assuming that’s true, that’s smart pitching and it no doub’t helps him save his arm.


#14

He throws for effect, in the duel he had with Jason Schmidt last July, he threw exactly 1 curve in 87 pitches, he threw it to Barry and he threw it in a spot where Barry just had to watch. I was paying close attention to the speed numbers that night, I recall it varying from 83 to 87/8, but everything was located, everything had a little jink…some late movement, I think 3 balls made the of, on the one good cut Barry had, Greg located it to where he hit to the deepest part of Chavez and it died on the warning track.
This stuff isn’t an accident, it is a comment on what it is to pitch. I think that guy “understands completely”; Conditioning, preparation, the different aspects of the role and how to focus and be ultimately successful in one of the most difficult envirnoments to do so.
A lessor competitor would have said well 20 yrs in, 300+ wins, 3000+ K’s, the Cubs love me, I could be Pitching Coach for life, I got enough bank to buy Belieze, why bother?..Instead it’s get me to a contender and oh by the way I’ll become the best on that staff and inspire a near run that was pretty darn close.
40 year old man for cripe sake…You couldn’t write a script like that it’s too surreal.