Bob Feller and the inverted w

I see a large inverted w in feller’s arm action, but didn’t he have a long, 18 year career? What’s with this?

Well Slurve what that is all about is this;

We live in a world controlled by what I call an MBA mentallity (Masters of Business Administration degree). In this world, accountants (Bean-counters to some) have convinced owners and leaders in industry (Including our sport) that everything can be broken down into tasks. These tasks can be made more and more efficient until you approach perfection. The purpose of this is to get the most productivity for your investment. This is why it is almost impossible to get into MLB outside of the “model” they follow (6’ to 6’ 7" and 185 to 270 as a pitcher). Now some “experts” have sought to find a home within the sport by presenting themselves as being able to “predict” injury through analyzing a pitchers motion. This gets “bean-counters” all excited…they think they can even further exclude, what they consider a bad or risky investment, so those “experts”, understanding the nature of “bean-counters” have taken advantage of their understanding of the counters desire to get more efficiency…So they make statements that though some know are outside the realm of reality…never the less are very much attractive to those idiots…oops I mean “bean-counters”. They cloak it in semi-medical catch phrases or jingoistic terms like “inverted W” or any number of terms that can be found throughout the web and sport. Now I personally don’t begrudge anyone, who through their own ingenuity and enterprising nature can con folks to the point where this gets them a job…heck you have to take your hat off and acknowledge the kahooonahs. Would I want to be the athlete that has to go through many more steps to make it after being excluded for this non-sense? Lets just put it this way…if it were me I would hope those “experts” have a really great security system on their house cause I’d be looking to commit a couple of mortal sins upon them, if I found out that this was the reason they excluded me.

Bob Feller and Satchel Paige and Whitey Ford and all of the greats that were outside the current model, weren’t part of that sort of mentality, they were looked at, found to be qualified by how they performed (Results not process). Our experts and bean-counters would have attempted to exclude them also…just showing more of their ignorance. This is also why you don’t see many pitchers featuring more than one arm-slot.
There are notable exceptions…like Linececum for example, Billy Wagner…our “experts” will say that this is just “freaks of nature” and fight like mad to get back to their predictors and models. I say that the by-product of this form of insanity is the loss of the great artists of our game. Latin guys still have it and so do the orientals…but in America…you better not be outside the model or if you are, you better be throwing 95-100.
I hope this gives you a little better understanding of what is really happening right now. Of course it is all just the opinion of one small guy…me.

that was beautiful jd :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: standing ovation worthy :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

okay, im just a little curious what an inverted W is. I would assume it is something moderately insignificant, considering that i’ve only heard about it a few times. especially considering that one of those times led to that great post by jd :smiley:

edit: i was thinking that i should make a thread asking what it is, but this seemed like a good place to ask

Thank you for the props. :cap:

An “inverted w” is within the motion of a pitcher at foot strike or just before where the elbows are higher relatively, that the hands or shoulders…you could call it “M” but that would take away some of the blather and mystic that is being attempted. This is said by some as a “predictor” of injury…many times pointing to poor old Mark Prior and saying “SEE” his mechanics made that line drive screw up his arm…I mean…his mechanics made him injured. It is a finer point discussion of mechanics and if I were a young pitcher working to better myself, I’d disregard that discussion and worry about something that could make a difference in my future career…like grades…or great conditioning. Let old farts wrangle over the sillyness and you just pitch.

very very slight inverted W, but Chris O Leary might say it’s not necessarily a huge problem because his elbow drops below the level of his shoulder at landing.

Correct.

Feller leans forward toward 3B which makes his elbows look higher than they actually are.

Nolan Ryan had a very similar arm action (as does John Smoltz). His elbows got somewhat high, but looked higher than they were since he was leaning forward. His elbow also dropped just before his shoulders started to turn.

Also, remember than Feller had a 4-year hole in the middle of his career due to his service during WWII. That is a long enough period of time for any potential shoulder problems to fix themselves.

This is really kind of pathetic.

Especially the parts about conning people and committing violence.

Also, the term “Inverted W” was coined by Paul Nyman. I attack it because he coined and advocates it.

[i]"This is really kind of pathetic.

Especially the parts about conning people and committing violence.

Also, the term “Inverted W” was coined by Paul Nyman. I attack it because he coined and advocates it."[/i]

Humm…guys excluded from the sport wouldn’t be pissed if they were excluded by your theory?

I have always used slang when I write Chris, as you know, way to try to make the discussion about that, instead of the point. Well if I thought you were going to be offended I would have added disclaimer to it. How un PC of me.

I’m really struggling with a response right now Chris, as you’ve not really even attempted to contravert what I said, but mearly attempted to make folks feel sorry for your being attacked by mean people once again.
Are you saying that baseball and industry are not being ruled by accountants and efficiency experts? I can cite much literature on the subject. Are you saying that “predicting injury” from photo-analysis is “science”? If so can you provide documentia corraborating this? Am I wrong? that someone wouldn’t be livid to find their dreams smashed, based on exclusion from these interpratations? Where am I wrong and or pathetic here Chris? Is it not a finer point discussion that has zero effect on a young pitcher? I mean you no harm. I think well of you. I think this aspect of what you do is mis-guided and potentially harmful to peoples dreams. Thats all. I am very proud that you’ve made it to where you are with comparably no real experience, it’s a tribute to your drive and I don’t fault you for it. But I do call them as I see them. Folks who read this may or may not agree.

[quote=“jdfromfla”]I’m really struggling with a response right now Chris, as you’ve not really even attempted to contravert what I said, but mearly attempted to make folks feel sorry for your being attacked by mean people once again.
Are you saying that baseball and industry are not being ruled by accountants and efficiency experts? I can cite much literature on the subject. Are you saying that “predicting injury” from photo-analysis is “science”? If so can you provide documentia corraborating this? Am I wrong? that someone wouldn’t be livid to find their dreams smashed, based on exclusion from these interpratations? Where am I wrong and or pathetic here Chris? Is it not a finer point discussion that has zero effect on a young pitcher? I mean you no harm. I think well of you. I think this aspect of what you do is mis-guided and potentially harmful to peoples dreams. Thats all. I am very proud that you’ve made it to where you are with comparably no real experience, it’s a tribute to your drive and I don’t fault you for it. But I do call them as I see them. Folks who read this may or may not agree.[/quote]

I have no problem with people questioning my ideas, but DO NOT accuse me of trying to con people.

I make full disclosure of who I am and what I have done on my web site.

I HAVE NEVER misrepresented myself.

To my knowledge, my work is followed by 3 guys from 2 ML teams. They all know who I am (and am not). I am not conning them. They know that I may be full of it or even crazy, which is why I can’t mention who they are, but they are fully aware of who I am.

Also, everyone that I hated in the 2007 draft (e.g. Tim Alderson) was still drafted, just not by the team I’m working with.

I think Alderson’s gonna be a stud. What didn’t you like about him Chris, the front knee locking out? He really has amazing command for a high school kid.

Alderson’s got tremendous stuff. No question.

However, he’s got a major Inverted L in his arm action, and as a result his timing is problematic…

His arm action may be the most awkward I’ve ever seen in a pro (I’ve got a catcher on my son’s 13U select team whose arm action is similar). Maybe Keith Foulke is the closest comp (but Foulke’s timing was better).

I also don’t like how he locks his GS knee.

I don’t think he’ll last, except maybe as a closer.

I know we’ve discussed this before, but I think the demands on a closer are just as stressful as the demands on starters despite the difference in innings pitched.

I said closer this time because I have been listening to you.

I think the closer role might be a little easier because it is more predictable. That may explain Billy Wagner’s predictability.

The life of a middle reliever can certainly be very hard due in part to the unpredictability.

Well glad I can help. I’ve seen some prospect analysts predicting that Alderson will be closing in the bigs within a couple years but I think that was based more on the fact that he only pitched from the stretch in high school, not so much durability concerns. He’ll be a starter for now so we’ll see how it plays out.

O’leary said this:

Also, remember than Feller had a 4-year hole in the middle of his career due to his service during WWII. That is a long enough period of time for any potential shoulder problems to fix themselves.

So if say, Mark Prior or Kerry Wood served 4 year tour of duty in Afganistan from 2001-2005, their shoulders would be ok?[/quote]

Possibly.

They would certainly be better.

A decent rule of thumb is that…

  • It takes days for muscles to repair themselves.
  • It takes weeks for tendons to repair themselves.
  • It takes months to years for ligaments to repair themselves.

That’s why back in the day (before surgery) all guys could do is take a season or two off and hope for the best.

Chris a labrum tear is a labrum tear. A torn muscle is a torn muscle. I dont think that a 3 to 4 year run in the military, which is something demanding of the body, is going to fix a injury.

Chris you defend what wasn’t attacked. Again, I made several points, not one of them was a personal attack upon you by name, nor have you despite your defensiveness, countered the logic. I never mentioned anyones name. I was talking about what controls the industry, I was talking about enterprising people, who, understanding how it works capitalized…which imo is neither bad or good it just is. You seem disturbed by my use of the word “con”, sell is perhaps a close match to it but, to me sell would represent a tried and true warrented practice. Your interpratations imo don’t rise to that level.
You mentioned that one prospect that made it…just not to your team. What if it was his hearts desire in life to play for your team? What I’m saying is this is an awesome power to wield and with your lack of experience, I find it irresponsible to use it as a tool of exclusion. Perhaps this is because my son is so close to this currently, I don’t know. It just doesn’t seem a fair thing to exclude players from even one team based on speculative interpretations of a moment in time. You’ve not even worked with varsity players personally…much less college and pro…or if you have it is a recent development you’ve not mentioned before. Most personnel who work within college or MLB that I have met say next to nothing as far as what does or doesn’t dq a person. Because they’ve been in the sport their whole lives, they know that hopes and dreams ride on what they do. They also can’t have much by way of guilt about that because they are being paid. So it’s a fine line. Jumping in there and getting thought going that any part of a motion or type of delivery is any better/worse by comparing to others via pictures is no way to treat kids who have spent their whole baseball years working and striving to reach the ultimate goal. More than enough stuff gets in the way, more than enough disqualifies kids. Why is it necessary to add yet another hurdle, one which by your own admission can be very wrong.
The subsequent discussion you’ve had on this thread is vintage you and not a thing wrong with it. When you start ventureing into the realm I mentioned, I will always vigorously disagree and do all I can to dismantle it with logic, not attack.

Well put jd.
:applause:

jd,

I admire your attempts to debate these points with logic and reason.

Unfortunately, while it seems to me the internet has been good for the quick dissemination of knowledge, it has also created many very serious problems in the area of sincerity, credibility, and accountability. The huge problems with lack-of-accountability are actually irresistable opportunities for scoundrels and rascals that want to “invent” themselves as something they are not for an internet audience.

You can see clear evidence of that throughout Mike Marshall’s website, for example. A formerly very good pitcher who holds an ancient degree in Kinesiology, MM disavows the mechanics that made him good but nevertheless cloaks his current b.s. in the mantle of his Cy Young award–which was achieved using the mechanics he now disavows.

Even worse, he regularly hands out legal advice although he is not an attorney, and he regularly hands out detailed medical advice although he is not a medical doctor. Here is a guy who, because he is esteemed for his MLB playing skills, is believed in all of his absurd pontifications by a few credulous ‘true believers’. His phenomenon reeks of voodoo cult behavior. One of the biggest challenges for sincere people is that you can’t really debate with voodoo cultists using logic and science–their hallmark practices are about obfuscation and deceit carried out in the pursuit of self-aggrandizement. The best you can do is try to shine the spotlight of reason on how these folks practice their ‘arts’.

So, I thought your judicious choice of the description “con” was well-said. The internet is unfortunately a place where honest people seeking honest information must certainly beware of being conned and duped by those who misrepresent themselves for personal gratification.