ASMI long toss study

Actually his main thrower China McCarthy had several injury issues and last I heard, he was still dealing with them trying to get out of JUCO. This could have changed as the last I had heard was before last college season.

Please. Implicating ASMI as a corrupt organization who takes money from Dick Mills and then doesn’t disclose it (which they have to do for research publications) is pretty absurd.

I don’t think the data in the study supports the strong conclusions/implications that long toss is harmful for otherwise healthy pitchers. Let the data do the talking.

it was a sarcastic joke after watching this interview by Mills, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYnEoJeqCZs

besides, i am impressed at how the American Sports Medical Insit. could mess this up… people and experts have been waiting for years for this to make a proper decision but if you think anti-long toss advocates are not going to run away with this then ok

Actually his main thrower China McCarthy had several injury issues and last I heard, he was still dealing with them trying to get out of JUCO. This could have changed as the last I had heard was before last college season.[/quote]

if this is accurate, he was drafted in 09 by the Rays… could be wrong thought they couldve signed him injured

[quote=“ASMI”]Hard, horizontal flat-ground throws have similar biomechanical patterns as pitching and are therefore reasonable exercises for pitchers.[/quote]Given the 2 kinematic differences described above, the conclusions should really elaborate on the statement that these are reasonable exercises for pitchers, which they are, but for very specific purposes. I would propose that they fit into an overall strength and conditioning regime but need to be used with caution when attempting to improve the act of “pitching” because of the kinematic differences described.

Nothing new on either of these - forward trunk tilt decreased as distances increased - isn’t that why you do a pull down phase when you are “working” in during the end of your long-toss. I know last year I took the ball out well past 120 feet (which is just another argument) and rushed my pull down phase. When I first got on the mound I had a specific, little control problem (missing way up in the zone) but it went away after a week or two of throwing from the mound. My pitching coach said that this was pretty common for guys that “half-a****” during the pull-down phase.

Regarding using long-toss in rehab - wasn’t rehab one of the earliest reasons for doing a so called “long-toss” program? So wouldn’t one need to be careful when long-tossing as part of a rehab program?

kidmullen,

The full-text article details how shorter long-toss throwing would be alright in rehab, but max distance should be avoided/delayed.

[quote=“Steven Ellis”]
Doubt it. So what you’re saying is that these pitchers you’re talking about NEVER threw longer than 60-feet? Ever? [/quote]

No,
I’m just saying that there are pitchers who can throw with high velocity
without doing long-tossing.
Obviously pitchers will sometimes throw longer than 60.5 feet.
My point is that a pitcher doesn’t have to long-toss to be able to have good velocity.

[quote=“kidmullen”]
I know last year I took the ball out well past 120 feet (which is just another argument) and rushed my pull down phase. When I first got on the mound I had a specific, little control problem (missing way up in the zone) but it went away after a week or two of throwing from the mound.
Regarding using long-toss in rehab - wasn’t rehab one of the earliest reasons for doing a so called “long-toss” program? So wouldn’t one need to be careful when long-tossing as part of a rehab program?[/quote]

This is one of the main reasons I am not in favor of long-toss.
Pitchers can mess up their mound pitching mechanics as a result of doing long-toss. Sure, they can fix the problem after a while.
But why mess up your mechanics in the first place?
If you want to long-toss, do it-
but don’t let it change your pitching mechanics.

[quote=“Drewski”]yeah i dont understand the study either… obviously they were paid off by Mills because of his little speech just before they conducted the study… man he knows how to steal some money
@ Ellis, you are 100%… i suppose cardswins only warms up at 30-45-60 feet and throws… i could give an estimation on that arm but i dont ever wish injury upon anyone… karma has a way…
this study was corrupted for sure… of course the shoulder line has to get more uphill… but thats why you pull it down :shock:
i swear i dont want to sound like an a-hole or a know it all but i couldve done a better study given the education these guys have[/quote]

You know Drewski, I don’t understand you.
From what you say, it could appear that are paid off by long-toss advocates to go on baseball forums and accuse Dick Mills of paying people to find evidence that long-toss is not good for you.
As for the study being corrupted, you just didn’t like it because you
think that you are the expert on long-toss.
And you better start swearing,
'cause you obviously don’t have any education relatively similar to what those guys have.

[quote=“CardsWin”][quote=“kidmullen”]
I know last year I took the ball out well past 120 feet (which is just another argument) and rushed my pull down phase. When I first got on the mound I had a specific, little control problem (missing way up in the zone) but it went away after a week or two of throwing from the mound.
Regarding using long-toss in rehab - wasn’t rehab one of the earliest reasons for doing a so called “long-toss” program? So wouldn’t one need to be careful when long-tossing as part of a rehab program?[/quote]

This is one of the main reasons I am not in favor of long-toss.
Pitchers can mess up their mound pitching mechanics as a result of doing long-toss. Sure, they can fix the problem after a while.
But why mess up your mechanics in the first place?
If you want to long-toss, do it-
but don’t let it change your pitching mechanics.[/quote]
I think here is where there is a common misconception of how to properly do long toss. Mechanics shouldn’t change at all. When you are playing long toss, the goal is to have the baseball on a line, because that keeps everything consistent. When long tossing you see people who want to throw the ball 240+ in the air, which then they throw up at a slight angle, which isn’t how it is supposed to be done.

And the arguments for the consequences of long-tossing will still be going on 100 years from now.
No study or physical evidence will make the pro- long-tossers change their mind.
Some people just won’t listen.

My main problems with long-toss are:
too often, pitchers change their mechanics when long tossing- and
some people who long-toss often try to throw etremely long distances, which is not good for them- and
long-tossing puts more stress on the arm then mound pitching.
If a pitcher can keep his mechanics the same when long-tossing as when mound pitching, then I don’t really have a problem with him.
As long as a pitcher keeps the long-tossing distance within reason without excessively straining his body, then I don’t have a problem with him.

[quote=“CardsWin”]My main problems with long-toss are:
too often, pitchers change their mechanics when long tossing- and
some people who long-toss often try to throw etremely long distances, which is not good for them- and
long-tossing puts more stress on the arm then mound pitching.
If a pitcher can keep his mechanics the same when long-tossing as when mound pitching, then I don’t really have a problem with him.
As long as a pitcher keeps the long-tossing distance within reason without excessively straining his body, then I don’t have a problem with him.[/quote]
First off, long tossing is equally as strenuous on the joints, muscles, etc. Besides that obvious difference in view…

People kill people, guns don’t kill people. Guns can be used to good things, so why would you get rid of guns completely? Now, according to what you said, long toss doesn’t change a persons mechanics, they change their mechanics. So why rid yourself of long toss completely if it can be good?

this is what i have been saying all along and you refute/insult me? haha youre a contradictory comedian for sure

and like i wrote kyleb, and obvousily you didnt watch your boy Mills video where he says he spoke about how bad long tossing is to ASMI director before they did the study

sarcastic. joke.

this is what i have been saying all along and you refute/insult me? haha youre a contradictory comedian for sure

and like i wrote kyleb, and obvousily you didnt watch your boy Mills video where he says he spoke about how bad long tossing is to ASMI director before they did the study

sarcastic. joke.[/quote]

“My boy” Mills? I am on record as strongly disagreeing with the vast majority of what he thinks is true.

this is what i have been saying all along and you refute/insult me? haha youre a contradictory comedian for sure

and like i wrote kyleb, and obvousily you didnt watch your boy Mills video where he says he spoke about how bad long tossing is to ASMI director before they did the study

sarcastic. joke.[/quote]

“My boy” Mills? I am on record as strongly disagreeing with the vast majority of what he thinks is true.[/quote]
I believe he was referring to cards.

ya sorry about the word play kyleb, youre a cool dude

Well, I think too many folks have jumped on the “let’s bash ASMI” bandwagon. Ya’ll have acknowledged that the debate about long toss has been going on forever. And we all know the baseball is overflowing with conventional wisdom. So what’s wrong with trying to measure, characterize and quantify the benefit of long toss to pitchers in a scientific manner? This will finally give ASMI an answer to the questions they no doubt get about long toss because they won’t otherwise hand out conventional wisdom. And it will give all of you who claim you already knew the answer some scientific backing to what had been nothing more than your opinion.

Now, one thing every one of you seems to have overlooked… Where does long toss need to be performed? Outdoors! How many outdoor motion analysis systems are you aware of on this planet? My conclusion (assuming the pitchers in ASMI’s study did their long toss outdoors) is that ASMI now has a motion analysis system that can be used outdoors. This is cool! Just think of all the other applications - not just baseball - this could be used for. I would have loved to have had 3D slo-mo of my high jumping form back when I was a high jumper in high school.

Not sure why this was directed at me. All I said was that I agreed with DM. I don’t even know what video you’re talking about.

[quote=“CSOleson”]First off, long tossing is equally as strenuous on the joints, muscles, etc. Besides that obvious difference in view…
People kill people, guns don’t kill people. Guns can be used to good things, so why would you get rid of guns completely? Now, according to what you said, long toss doesn’t change a persons mechanics, they change their mechanics. So why rid yourself of long toss completely if it can be good?[/quote]

Right.
As for long-tossing, I don’t use it.
I’d just plain rather stick to mound pitching.
What I meant was that if a person changes his mound pitching mechanics,
then he probably should not be long-tossing because it
is having a detrimental effect on his mound pitching.
Long-toss can be good in some cases, like you said.
But that doesn’t mean that everybody has to do it just 'cause it works
for some people.