ASMI long toss study


#1

Biomechanical Comparison
of Baseball Pitching and Long-Toss

—Abstract
STUDY DESIGN: Controlled laboratory study.

OBJECTIVES: Test for kinematic and kinetic differences between baseball pitching from a mound and long-toss on flat ground.

BACKGROUND: Long-toss throws from flat ground are commonly used by baseball pitchers for rehabilitation, conditioning, and training. However, controversy exists about the biomechanics and functionality of such throws.

METHODS: Seventeen healthy college baseball pitchers pitched fastballs 18.4 m from a mound to a strike zone, and threw 37 m, 55 m, and maximum distance from flat ground. Participants were instructed to throw 37m and 55m “hard, on a horizontal line,” whereas no constraint on trajectory was given for maximum distance throws. Kinematics and kinetics were measured with a 3-dimensional automated motion analysis system. Repeated measures ANOVA with post-hoc paired t-tests were used to compare the 4 throw types within pitchers.

RESULTS: At foot contact, the shoulder line was nearly horizontal for pitching and became progressively more “uphill” as throwing distance increased. At arm cocking, the greatest amount of shoulder external rotation (mean ± SD: 180±11°), elbow flexion (109±10°), shoulder internal rotation torque (101±17 Nm), and elbow varus torque (100±18 Nm) were measured during the maximum distance throws. Elbow extension velocity was greatest for the maximum distance throws (2573±203°/s). Forward trunk tilt at the instant of ball release decreased as throwing distance increased.

CONCLUSIONS: Hard, horizontal flat-ground throws have similar biomechanical patterns as pitching and are therefore reasonable exercises for pitchers. However, maximum distance throws produce increased torques and changes in kinematics; caution is therefore advised for use of these throws in rehabilitation and training. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther, Epub 5 January 2011. doi:10.2519/jospt.2011.3568.


discuss


#2

The same could be said about lifting weights - as you increase weight, the risks of injury increase, too. Yet, we all know lifting properly has its many benefits.

The same could be said about running sprints - as you increase speed, the risks of injury increase, too. Your running form changes to adapt to the speed of movement. But, again, we all know sprint work is beneficial.

I personally just don’t know how I could have ever developed a 90+ mph fastball WITHOUT long tossing regularly – without pushing my body to its limits.

Frankly, I think this is all bunch of BS. :roll:


#3

[quote=“ASMI”]Hard, horizontal flat-ground throws have similar biomechanical patterns as pitching and are therefore reasonable exercises for pitchers.[/quote]Given the 2 kinematic differences described above, the conclusions should really elaborate on the statement that these are reasonable exercises for pitchers, which they are, but for very specific purposes. I would propose that they fit into an overall strength and conditioning regime but need to be used with caution when attempting to improve the act of “pitching” because of the kinematic differences described.

[quote=“ASMI”]…caution is therefore advised for use of these throws in rehabilitation and training.[/quote]I didn’t take this to mean that one shouldn’t do it. Rather, one should understand that the stresses are greater, so use caution when doing it.


#4

unfortunately now Mills will run away with this… as i believe ASMI did not long toss properly… i had a video of asmi doing the testing and the throwers were max effort instead of using minimum effort to break false limitations…

oh well, wont stop me from throwing 300 ft+ my arm feels fantastic


#5

The same could be said about lifting weights - as you increase weight, the risks of injury increase, too. Yet, we all know lifting properly has its many benefits.

The same could be said about running sprints - as you increase speed, the risks of injury increase, too. Your running form changes to adapt to the speed of movement. But, again, we all know sprint work is beneficial.

I personally just don’t know how I could have ever developed a 90+ mph fastball WITHOUT long tossing regularly – without pushing my body to its limits.

Frankly, I think this is all bunch of BS. :roll:[/quote]I agree 100%, not only does long toss help build arm strength, but it also shows if you have a mechanical deficiency, because if you do, the ball will cut to the left or right the farther you throw.


#6

if it cuts to left if your lefthanded or right what is the mechanical flaw?


#7

[quote=“Drewski”]if it cuts to left if your lefthanded or right what is the mechanical flaw?[/quote]What you are looking at could be a number of things, but the definite issue is that you are not applying all the force linearly to the back of the baseball, which can be pulling off to the right or the left on the follow through, poor rotation on the fastball, and any other number of things. When I throw long toss, I only throw a 4 seam fastball, as it has limited movement and the most amount of control-ability.

Also, ran over a quote that made me think of this study


#8

What this study is really saying is that a pitcher should not spend too much time attempting to learn and practice a skill that is different than pitching from a mound. Whether it is flat ground, long toss, etc, don’t get too caught up in it. Sure, if you want to air it out every now and again or you just like to warm up with some long throws, that’s fine but to get involved in a whole program of long toss can only detract from the specific skill of pitching from a mound at 60’ 6". I can guarantee you that Olympic archers only practice at their specified distance, same thing with dart players, tennis players, etc. When you are talking about a sport that requires a defined target from a specific distance, you had better be an expert at that distance. Why spend time doing something else? It can’t be for arm strength - you can throw at max. effort from a mound just as you can throw max. effort from anywhere else. Besides, all that throwing doesn’t necessarily make your arm “stronger”. Study upon study will show that the non-throwing arm is just as “strong” as the throwing arm. Which muscle is the “throwing” muscle to be strengthened anyway? You guys can keep defending long-toss and other gimmicks but there is still no substitute for constantly scrutinizing and changing mechanics to improve velocity and control. And then doing it over and over and over again until you become an expert.


#9

some people can have perfect mechanics but if their bodies are not strong enough, how long until they injure themselves or falter?

all long toss does is create the condition, the intensity, and the violence of a throw into 60 feet

if that was the case, you wouldnt see MLB throwing long toss at all

you can call it a gimmick, but i call it factual






#10

[quote=“Drewski”]some people can have perfect mechanics but if their bodies are not strong enough, how long until they injure themselves or falter?
all long toss does is create the condition, the intensity, and the violence of a throw into 60 feet
if that was the case, you wouldnt see MLB throwing long toss at all
you can call it a gimmick, but i call it factual[/quote]

Some people can have strong enough bodies, but have terrible mechanics.
And they will be prone to injury.
I thought long tossing was throwing distances way more than 60 feet.
Remember, not all MLB pitchers long-toss.
You can call it factual, but I call it a gimmick.


#11

Well, apparently some pitchers have developed a 90+ fastball without long-tossing at all.

Not really anything to do with the current subject, but
what do you think was the cause of the injury that ended your career?


#12

Well, apparently some pitchers have developed a 90+ fastball without long-tossing at all.
[/quote]

yes, they are lucky and have gods gift of genetics and laxity in their muscles


#13

:allgood: I agree with DM on this one.


#14

[quote=“Drewski”]
yes, they are lucky and have gods gift of genetics and laxity in their muscles[/quote]

They are lucky, and they have God’s gift of genetics
and laxity in their muscles- but that’s not all in all the cases.
Pitching mechanics play a large part in velocity.
A pitcher has to generate enough momentum, and use his body
to effectively transfer that energy into the delivery of the baseball
(using the lower body and core to generate most of his power).
Maybe long-tossing helps.
Maybe long-tossing doesn’t help.


#15

[quote=“CardsWin”]They are lucky, and they have God’s gift of genetics
and laxity in their muscles- but that’s not all in all the cases.
Pitching mechanics play a large part in velocity.
A pitcher has to generate enough momentum, and use his body
to effectively transfer that energy into the delivery of the baseball
(using the lower body and core to generate most of his power).
[/quote]

Don’t go out on a limb there, wow!

Mechanics play a large part in velocity and a pitcher must use the largest muscles in his body to correctly sequence bodyparts in precise order to throw hard? It’s almost like we obey the laws of physics and physiology!

Anyway…

ASMI’s study shows that pitchers’ MER increased as the distances increased. This is probably dangerous for pitchers who are rehabilitating, but for those who are training, this can be beneficial. Increased values of MER during arm cocking were positively correlated with increased fastball velocity. (source: http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/highlowpitches.htm)

Developing better shoulder joint laxity through long-tossing and training MER could lead to higher fastball velocities. The same concept holds true with overweight baseballs and medicine balls used in throwing.


#16

Well, apparently some pitchers have developed a 90+ fastball without long-tossing at all.

[/quote]

Doubt it. So what you’re saying is that these pitchers you’re talking about NEVER threw longer than 60-feet? Ever? :shock:


#17

Well, apparently some pitchers have developed a 90+ fastball without long-tossing at all.

[/quote]

Doubt it. So what you’re saying is that these pitchers you’re talking about NEVER threw longer than 60-feet? Ever? :shock:[/quote]
I agree with you Steven, I doubt that a pitcher only stood at 60’. Most of us when we warm up we get to 90 feet-120 feet. I never even considered that distance to be long toss, but only basic throwing distance for anybody. Pitchers do have to field the ball sometimes, and you never know when you may have to throw past 60.5’.


#18

So we have all been waiting 1.5 years for something you can look at videos or pics and make the same conclusions over? This has to be the biggest joke of a study I have ever seen. I never thought much of this group outside of their surgery skills and this just confirms they know nothing that common sense or a little 1st year geometry does not tell us all when it comes to throwing a baseball. The argument of the benefits of long tossing will still be going on 100 years from now. No positive study is going to make the anti long tossers change their mind, just like this study does not change my mind on the benefits of having my son long toss.


#19

yeah i dont understand the study either… obviously they were paid off by Mills because of his little speech just before they conducted the study… man he knows how to steal some money

@ Ellis, you are 100%… i suppose cardswins only warms up at 30-45-60 feet and throws… i could give an estimation on that arm but i dont ever wish injury upon anyone… karma has a way…

this study was corrupted for sure… of course the shoulder line has to get more uphill… but thats why you pull it down :shock:

@ Roger… stop the video on the jaeger long toss during pull down phase and you will see near perfect mechanics… they have to in order to throw 90-95 without hurting themselves… not to mention they do this 3-5x a week

i swear i dont want to sound like an a-hole or a know it all but i couldve done a better study given the education these guys have


#20

:applause:

I just don’t even understand the point of the study. Heaven forbid a pitcher is put in the outfield on a day he isn’t pitching and has to make a long throw to a base. Wonder if CardsWin would run it in instead of making the throw?