ASMI evaluation question

How much do the biomechanical evaluations cost at ASMI? I was hoping I could get one but am not sure how much they cost. I looked on the website and couldn’t find it.

Just write or phone them and ask—what the evaluations are all about, and then how much the whole thing costs. It might be worth your time and money, and you’d certainly know where you stand.

Not too long ago it was about $500 for the basic evaluation. You can probably go from there… if you are interested just contact them [quote]“To find out about scheduling an evaluation and/or the cost, please contact Becky Bolt, M.S. at (205) 918-2116 or beckyb@asmi.org.” [/quote] from their website.

why you would spend this kind of money for this kind of service. Can you explain why you’re even considering it? 30 and 60 fps video more than suffice…

I was just curious about it. And because ASMI seems like a good place to have your mechanics checked out.

Lanky,

I can think of alot worse ways to waste $500. I think a reasonable arguement could be produced in defense of such an expenditure. Just think of the last thing you might have purchased for $500…

Flat screen TV
Cheap Notebook Computer
Books for one semester of college
Cheap compound bow
Remington 700 rifle but no scope
Season bleacher tickets to a minor league ballpark
Set of Taylormade irons
Graduation party for all your relatives and friends
My last grocery bill :roll:
A really crappy treadmill
Set of tires for my F150 truck
A really smokin composite bat
A registered golden retriever puppy
One trip to the vet to get it fixed
A pitcher’s mitt for both home and away games or maybe a catchers mitt for your bud.
Pitching lessons
A cell phone - one of those mini computer’s that does everything but change your diaper.
Video game system
Two years of XM radio
New Push mower
Washer or dryer
Mattress and box springs
Really cheap engagement ring - you don’t want to marry her anyway. :wink:
A .45 caliber Glock handgun to carry with you to the strip club and shoot your leg off.
A push mower
A crappy riding mower or snow thrower
A real nice kayak but not the paddle
An eye exam with new frames and lens
Two tickets to a Yankees game but who wants them anyway 8)
A used car without tires, powertrain or engine
A ticket for throwing your trash out on the interstate :twisted:
A gun safe
Round trip air for a couple anywhere in the US
One jump in tandem from an airplane at 13,500 feet
A really nice GPS system for the car
A rangefinder
Nuclear Binoculars for monitoring the neighbors’ visitors
A low quality acoustic guitar
16.6666666666666666666666666666666666 cases of really good beer
Cheap paintball gun

Anyway…if it helps you to correct some obvious mechanical problem that would lead to injury, it might be worth it just to meet Dr. Andrews in person. He’s had his hands on more major league baseball players than Madonna. :o

Flat screen TV A small one
Cheap Notebook Computer internet only no gamage
Books for one semester of college or tuition if you’re only taking 2 classes
Cheap compound bow twang
Remington 700 rifle but no scope or a cheap Mosburg 12 gauge from a hock shop
Season bleacher tickets to a minor league ballpark you buyin the suds and dogs??
Set of Taylormade irons See my post in Off Topic
Graduation party for all your relatives and friends BYOB
My last grocery bill So you went vegetarian after all
A really crappy treadmill [b] or a really high quality set of dumb bells

[/b]Set of tires for my F150 truck 2 low profiles for a Mercedes C230
A really smokin composite bat or 4 custom woodies from Louisville Slugger
A registered golden retriever puppy :shock: :shock: :shock: mine was a gift
One trip to the vet to get it fixed or the couch he ate when you didn’t have him fixed
A pitcher’s mitt for both home and away games or maybe a catchers mitt for your bud. or 1 Rawlings custom plus tax and shipping

Pitching lessons or several depending on the instructor
A cell phone - one of those mini computer’s that does everything but change your diaper. Mine has a lady who pops out and gives manicures…but it’s not available to the public yet
Video game system They saw you coming Dino :shock:
Two years of XM radio Howard Stern just ain’t worth it
New Push mower or repairs to your bush hog
Washer or dryer or 20 trips to the laundry mat
Mattress and box springs or a leaky water bed
Really cheap engagement ring - you don’t want to marry her anyway. She won’t marry your butt once it’s been appraised so ask the idiot with the glock how many lap dances it will buy
A .45 caliber Glock handgun to carry with you to the strip club and shoot your leg off. Should have unloaded before the lap dance :shock:
A push mower or what it costs every stinkin time that C230 hits the dealership
A crappy riding mower or snow thrower if you’ve used the push mower no such thing as a crappy rider 8)
A real nice kayak but not the paddle or a diamond encrusted paddle
An eye exam with new frames and lens my preferred reading method is this :wink: …went for the lap dances
Two tickets to a Yankees game but who wants them anyway 1 fair seat at Wrigley
A used car without tires, powertrain or engine They saw you coming Dino or a wrecked Camero signed off as totaled
A ticket for throwing your trash out on the interstate Or dropping off a pet you don’t want in a rural neigborhood
A gun safe or restoration on an antique clock
Round trip air for a couple anywhere in the US sometimes
One jump in tandem from an airplane at 13,500 feet they saw you coming Dino
A really nice GPS system for the car or 3 real cheap ones
A rangefinder for when you don’t like the neigbors visitors
Nuclear Binoculars for monitoring the neighbors’ visitors or watching eagles scare the crap out of buzzards :lol: :lol:
A low quality acoustic guitar or a down payment on a Les Paul
16.6666666666666666666666666666666666 cases of really good beer or 6 trips your wife makes to the hair dresser
Cheap paintball gun they saw you coming Dino :shock:
I think the new 3P’s group is offering a membership that includes video analysis for around $600 for a years membership…less for 180 or 90 day memberships

https://3psports.com/shop/

Which is a group that includes Dr. Andrews, Glenn Fleisig, Rick Peterson, Al Lieter, Glavine, Dorfman etc…if my kid was younger or I was richer I think I’d give this a bit of consideration.

The fee for a biomechanical avaluation at ASMI is not just paying for some video. It’s also paying for the knowledge and experience of the folks that perform the evaluation, the model of “good mechanics” that’s been developed over time based on a database of “elite” pitchers, and the technology used to capture high speed video and create a 3-D model that can be manipulated as desired to view elements of your delivery from any angle and sequence and to compare deliveries between different pitches (e.g. fastball vs. change-up).

Yeah…what he said!!! :stuck_out_tongue:

Why didn’t I think of that?

too bad the website gives no indication of what “good mechanics” are. We are just supposed to trust them because of their resumes.

I, for one am a skeptic! They just say you get an advanced biomechanical evaluation by the “best guys in the business” without saying what they look for, why they look for it. not even a sample evaluation.

sure there are worse ways to spend 500$

but im talking about 500$ towards baseball career. how about a camera where you can film yourself? a radar gun? a net to throw into? weighted balls? weight equipment? money for showcases? college visiting?

Lanky,

I understand your skepticism, and I also don’t think a laboratory motion analysis should necessarily be high up there on everyone’s list of “how I am going to spend my next discretionary $500”. Most guys have plenty of other more important fish to fry–simple video and/or an experienced coach should be #1 on most people’s list.

However, both Fleisig and Andrews have published data from their biomechanical studies of pitchers very extensively in the sports medicine literature…using pitchers from LL to pro levels as their experimental subjects.

You may remember the thought-provoking analysis of 4 Marshall-style pitchers by the ASMI–the gory details of that study are still available at ASMI (in the forums, I think) because Marshall went nuts over the results. When I say he went nuts, that is not to say that he had very far to go of course…lol.

Both Andrews and Fleisig are also on the advisory board of NPA and, briefly put, many of their studies tend to confirm and/or expand on the conclusions that emerged from T. House’s seminal work with Alan Blitzblau on the biomechanics of effective pitching motions. That does not by any means guarantee the absolute correctness of all, or any, of the conclusions…but it does provide a sense that progress is being made toward identifying important features of pitching mechanics that should be emphasized and taught, versus teaching points that merely come from the lore of common wisdom and perhaps should be dumped.

On an individual basis what you can expect is a highly detailed evaluation of the mechanical efficiencies and inefficiencies in your motion, as compared to other pitchers in the ASMI database. (My son has done a full-blown pitching motion analysis at Children’s Hosp in San Diego w/ Arnel Aguinaldo…mostly because I was interested enough to pay for it. That is, no one ‘talked me into it’–it was part of a vacation trip to San Diego where we decided to attend an NPA camp and do a motion analysis rather than drop all our money at Sea World. At the time, Children’s Hospital was working directly with (you guessed it) Tom House and they maintained and added to his extensive motion analysis database of pitchers before NPA acquired the capability in-house).

Again, this is not for the casual player and it may not be very important even to serious pitchers, unless there is some issue that you and your coaches just cannot seem to solve. If that’s the case, $500 for a highly detailed diagnostic and a comparative analysis against the data for healthy elite pitchers could be very valuable. It’s a judgement call all the way.

I just think they should explain the service before expecting people to spend 500$ on it. That is, what they are looking for and how they judge mechanical efficiency.

Well, sure–but I think if you actually inquired (absolutely before spending any $$) the ASMI would in fact explain their services to you at whatever level of detail you need. ASMI librarian Deborah Hall will even send you complementary copies of relevant full-text articles of the ASMI’s research studies if you ask (but you do have to know exactly which titles you want to read).

Fleisig and some of the other ASMI folks are very active on their own forum, and they seem very accessible. But, caveat emptor, if you’ve ever read any of the sports med research put out by ASMI using their motion capture system you already know that the data is highly complex and does not readily yield to ‘over-simplification’ It’s a heavy duty learning curve for most of us…and probably not all that important for most of us.

Okay, I just found my son’s 14-page hard copy report from Children’s Hospital Center for Human Performance (Motion Analysis Lab).

The 1st page of the report summarizes the motion capture technique that was used (Vicon high speed 8-camera system, reflective markers plaed on specific body locations, blah, blah, blah).

The report goes on to explain that the important checkpoints in the analysis represent the model developed by Bio-Kinetics R&D (this is a Tom House company and is also associated w/ NPA).

There is a flow chart that explains the salient parts of the model and each checkpoint gets one or two pages of summary data from your actual delivery, and comparisons are made with the same types of data generated by one or more other pitchers in the database.

For example,

Balance through Delivery: (1) Center of Gravity and hip locations are monitored throughout the delivery (2) Head tilt angles are monitored throughout (3) Trunk tilt angles are monitored throughout.

Equal and Opposite Arms: Side-to-side differences in shoulder abduction/adduction are monitored throughout.

Hip/Shoulder separation and Delayed Shoulder separation kinetics and kinematics are measured.

Controlled glove side: (1) Shoulder adduction (2) Elbow Flexion (3) Distance between glove wrist and front foot

Release Posture: (1) Trunk rotation @ ball release (2) Trunk tilt @ ball release (3) elbow flexion @ ball release (4) distance between shoulder and front foot @ ball release (5) distance between release wrist and back foot (6) release point

In addition to the hard copy report, we got a data-CD with the motion analysis files and a copy of the software required to play interactively with the delivery analytics that were created by the Vicon system.

Does that help?

Lee, thanks for sharing those insights into an actual motion analysis. Although it just scratches the surface, hopefully people can see the type of detail that is behind the mechanics model used by folks like the ASMI, NPA, etc. There’s a lot to it - actual measured values that are captured in a database which is then used to identify trends, ranges, commonalities among pitchers, etc. It’s not just someone’s “opinion” of what they think they see when watching pitchers.

Lanky,

Imagine if you could get one or a group of sponsors to pay for the biomechanical analysis. Then you get a friend to drive you there and go through the process yourself. When you come out…you’ve got one of two things. A valuable addition to your pitching journey and/or personal experience to draw from when you write a review here in LTP. 8)

the problem is, even if you do realize what you need to fix (and I’m unconvinced that this is not achievable with 30 fps video)

they give you no indication of how to go about making those changes. Backwards chaining is really the only method that bridges the gap.

[quote]the problem is, even if you do realize what you need to fix (and I’m unconvinced that this is not achievable with 30 fps video)

they give you no indication of how to go about making those changes. Backwards chaining is really the only method that bridges the gap.[/quote]

Lanky you are so close to getting it, a slight paradygm shift…I bet you can smell it…that nagging feeling that you’re coming to an awakening. What I think you are missing is the thought that it all plays a part. Consider what they did before low speed photography. Oh yes they did realize what it takes to fix pitchers…I have this talent, it used to drive my asst coaches and smart-arsed parents nuts. I could “feel” the next play to the point where I’d look at a kid and tell them to get ready the next ball was coming their way. It isn’t something that happens all game long, roughly 4-8 times a game when I’m really concentrating on the game. Another example is my son, I don’t have to watch 2 or 3 throws and I know the state he’s in for pitching in the next day or two…it happens when you pay attention to someone you’ve caught for 15 or so years, I can tell if he’ll have a live arm with lots of movement, I can tell when he’ll have a “feel” for his breaking ball. So an experienced person who studies the art can see and understand body movement without the benefit of hs photography, Rick Wilkins would only hs film Andy as a baseline (He filmed him exactly twice in the decade we’ve been around him…heck never even showed it to me :? he uses the mlb version of hs software and camera) and then adjust by sight and knowledge…I WISH $500 was all that I ever dropped :shock:

I admire your tenacious search and research I will openly state that on these forums there is not a better nor more thourough researcher than you, in my opinion…well maybe an adult named Flippin. Think about Roger as an example. He is an NPA certified coach, who trains kids regularly (In this economy :shock: as regular as it gets anyway :lol: ). He studies House, but he also knows that as the “man on the ground” it’s in his best interests to understand beyond one notion (Though as a mechanics instructor House is outstanding) because at some point you’ll have to look at a kid that doesn’t “fit”. It’s responsible to be at that position. I’m still looking for your entire deal to hit the street so I can see the results of what you’ve learned. The videos of the drill work you go through are impressive and I would like to see how they translate to a long term highly competitive situation…it’s kind of the paradox you present, are we dealing with the kid who whats to be a great pitcher and/or the kid who wants to really coach and analyse players to that high level…
I guess that to me is the point, a person needs all (Obviously credable) resource within financial and physical reach to obtain the complete maximization of themselves as a pitcher, baker, candlestick maker whatever. It is reasonable to think that the analysis of this association may prove beneficial, it shouldn’t be the “alpha and omega”, nothing is. At some point it may be more prudent and possible to find a credable local guy who can assist the poster to better translate the nuances that need be adjusted to get the maximum effort out of his body, or some random person might just say something that triggers a greater understanding. I agree that it is also prudent to be skeptical…but not cynical.

JD,

I see what you mean in that the high speed tape could certainly be the piece of the puzzle that makes everything “click” for the player, I’ve just regularly had this kind of eye-opening moment by studying tons of high level throwers and comparing them to myself frame by frame at 30 frames per second. Hey, if you have $500 lying around, there are worse things to use it on (and better, too, in my opinion). But then again, everyone responds differently to different cues (why a pitching coach can tell one kid to push off the rubber and see a 5 mph increase and another to push off the rubber and see a 5 mph decrease). Certainly, there is a possibility this analysis could be the eye-opener…

another more practical reason is that when trying to develop high level throw mechanics, it is a constant trial and error process. The mechanics are ALWAYS varying slightly (or less slightly, in my case) as you get closer and closer to the end result. To spend $500 when those mechanics may change from week to week seems somewhat impractical, at least for me, where I have hundreds upon hundreds of clips of myself throwing, and I can track all the changes I have made chronologically, velocity increases, etc.(again, trial and error).

Nyman says that a pitching coach’s job is to condense/shorten that trial and error process through effective cues, etc. I’ll admit that this service could be beneficial, albeit somewhat impractical for most.

If he would have asked about SetPro would your response had been different? I never spent a dime on Mills or Paul or House (Though we were going to go to one of his week end clinics but made another choice before we did). The point is you have trust in whom you trust, it gives it relavance. I think this may have a bunch of relavence to many…those 3P fellas too. Rick Peterson is a smart guy AND a Major League pitching coach (One could say this experience gives him an edge over those who haven’t analyzed and worked with pitchers at that level…it certainly has given him access to the heights of technology few have used)…throw in the rest of that crew and you’ve got distinct possibilities that can rival everything else out there…for the money.