I threw a bullpen the other day and after like 20 pitchers my whole arm was hurting like not specifically my elbow or shoulder but my bicep tricep forearm. So i stopped throwing the next few days my whole arm was so sore so i stopped throwing for 2 week and iced and rested it. Does anyone know what this could of been. Cause this is not a good time for me to get hurt. Thanks a lot guys =)
why cant anyone ever answer 45 people read it thank a lot guys !
How old are you? Are you a late maturer, equated or early maturer?
Can you tell if you are going thru a growth spurt or when was your last one?
Do you pitch? Does it hurt when you throw from the field?
Do you have video?
What type of pitches are you practicing?
What type of pitches are you throwing in competition?
How do you train for pitching?
Do you throw from a high, medium or low arm slot?
Answer these questions in as much detail and recent history as you can think of and I will take a stab at it for you!!!
Im 18, i matured normal
I hit my growth spurt when i was around 16 years old
yes i pitch and no it really doesnt hurt when im in the field
yes i have videos heres my youtube channel lefthandedpitcher24
well ive been just throwing fastball since my arm was hurting i didnt wanna mess around with any offspeeds, but i do throw a changeup and curveball
i would say i throw in between over the top and 3/4
To be honest with you, its a long story but ill tty to explain it to you i havent really playing travel ball since i was 15 because thats when i started having elbow pain i took care of that it was a partial tear in my flexor tendon, so from 15 years old i didnt play i would just throw here and there. But this summer i wanted to play so stupid me i didnt really get into shape to pitch i just starting throwing and that was a stupid mistake on my part so like a week of throwing i was already pitching off a mound, i think that has to do with my arm hurting.?
But thanks a lot for replying i really appreciate it . =)
This means all of your growth plates in your elbows have solidified but you still have another year or 2 of growth at you large proximal (near the shoulder) humeral growth plate that has some mechanical deceleration actions to keep clean.
This means you are a delayed maturer not and equated one! You may be only one year late, this is actually a good thing when considering growth and potential.
This is because people have correct mechanical timing from the field because they get their Humerus in a better position to apply force than on the mound where they arte taught a leg lift where the humerus stays turned in and transitions late.
I see some problems that multiply from lack of fitness that all pitchers posses because of their non-specific workouts that they believe to be “sport specific” when they are inadequate.
This is one of your inflammation causers all over your arm, when you throw your fastball or curve (not sure about the CU) you supimate your forearm when driving them, this causes your Olecranon process of you Ulna bone to slam into the Fossa of the Humerus bone, just before this happening the Brachialis muscle under you Bicep and Bicep contract to keep this from happening (eccentric contraction, lengthening while contracting) ballistically, but at the same time fail to keep this from happening so you not only have your elbow slam together you have your muscles that are designed to flex your elbow actually traumatize because of their effort to stop Hyper extension. Think of it this way, you should want your triceps to fire off at this time to extend your elbow but this does not happen because the muscles (antagonist) on the other side are firing off instead causing inflammation and pain there also.
You can see this in the video by looking at where your elbow travels at the recovery phase, notice it travels down with the elbow pointed towards you left hip when if you were to pronate all your pitches and have your elbow fly upwards Like Kershaw, Lincecum and many more your elbow would hinge correctly and all your problems would disappear, guaranteed.
¾’s not good get it higher with the elbow traveling close to your ear while powerfully pronating your forearm and inwardly rotating your Humerus. Learn a fastball Sinker.
I don’t care if you ever play travel ball or any competition during the fall and winter!! You need to train “sport specifically with wrist weights and Iron balls from now until February with no breaks in between to become fit enough to then dominate that you have in you if you are fit. If you compete you will never get in shape by going into training regression, you will always be trying to be ready to pitch in competition by resting.
This is a lack of fitness injury!! These set of muscles and tendons overly the UCL and Dr’s are always miss-diagnosing this as UCL strain when the UCL does not have pain receptors.
Now you should get serious about this! Squat or get off the pot!
You’re welcome, Get to work and don’t stop, train every day, attain an interval training program that has you on the mound throwing out of a bucket and into a net after you overload train with wrist weights and iron balls. To learn how for free, go to my youtube channel at Dirtberry’s baseball or get Ron Wolforths program or Steven Ellis’s here at LTP but get it going time is running out on you. Let me know how you are coming along and if you have any questions, bring it.
If you’re having pain then you have a medical condition that should be treated by a doctor. And this should be done before addressing mechanics and conditioning.
yardbird- So my elbow hurts because im not pronating correctly
Absolutely, your mechanical approach is why you keep having recurrent pain then healthy feeling then pain again. You are not pronating at all like most pitchers and by supinating all your drives you ensure the continuation of the injurious effect and continual severe inflammation.
Now couple that with your and all other pitchers lack of specific fitness and you have the recipe for continuing problems.
You need to train using one of the most important athletic training principles “Sport Specificity” this means when you overload train you use the athletic motion that you perform during your heavy resistance training elements and when you underload train you do the same thing. The underload element is accomplished by throwing maximal bullpens with normal balls because a 5oz. object is considered under loaded already and immediately after the overload elements, every day from now until February then you break back to ½ the weight and ½ the reps during Spring competitions every day even on game days.
The overload element while difficult logistically can be accomplished with some effort. At your biological age you should start with 10 lb. Wrist weights and a 6 lb. Ball (ladies shot-put).
I would start by finding a place where you can build a rudimentary rebound wall with wood and some rubber mats because unless you are OK with chasing the ball, most will not do this unless they use the chasing part as a short sprint opportunity. If you do it this way do not throw the heavy ball on someone’s else’s grass, your teams grass or a communities park grass. If you have an area that is dirt or your own grass have at it but the rebound wall with a belt high platform is much better because of the work to rest relationship and we want you to throw with short time between reps. I’ve had College kids and pro’s use a hill with a rubber horse mat laid on it for returns. Like I said this is the part that usually keep people from going forwards with it.
You must first learn how to pronate all your pitches!!! There is a great video here that xv84 made showing how Roy Halladay throws his cutter by pronating it,
he learned this from the same information I am giving you and he has been healthier now than when he did it traditionally supunating it. You can throw a Slider the (Steve Carlton threw his slider this way) same way by getting on top of it more.
The pitches that tail towards the glove arm side of home plate are more intuitive if you learn how to throw by pronating the other side of the ball like when you throw circle changes and screwball changes, tailing fastball and Sinkers.
Watch how Lincecum leaves his elbow up after powerfully pronating his tailing to the ball arm side of home plate fastball Sinker, this is the way you should drive all your pitches even your curve. Pay attention to how he drives the ball from frame 130 thru 145 where he engages his Latissimus Dorsi as the primary mover to drive it home, see hoe his Humerus is turning inwardly and powerfully and then finishes with a horizontal release and recovery.
You , by supinating all your pitches engage you pectoralis major as the primary mover, not good, and release with you elbow down and recover down vertically oriented with your arm across your chest, this causes deceleration over stress and those type injuries.
If you decide to actually start this process keep asking your questions here rather than PM’s or e-mails so others can receive this important information especially young kids and their parents.
in what video of me throwing did u see me supinating my pitches
It was the two on the all dirt field and the 70 percent bullpen.
I wouldn’t suggest you throw from the mound at 70% ever, get warmed up and then throw maximally to train you motor skills and releases as they are performed in competition, this way you get in your underload ballistic training correctly, this is the same reason Long toss works to attain you ballistic portion also, it’s just better to do it off a mound and you really do not need a catcher, just a bucket of ball and a net with a target, any back ground screen will do. You need to stay taller and rotate 180 degrees also.
okay thanks, and how can i try to change this and learn to pronate correctly and what do you mean im supinating?
Your forearm has 2 bones in it (the Ulna and the Radius) that allows a further turning range of motion than if there were one bone like in the upper arm.
When you turn the forearm to the outside away from the body with the thumb turning up you are articulating supination. Supination occurs when the arm flies away from the body (not preferable although you can supinate from the towards the body position) in any outwards degree of angle and the more critical the degree of angle the more intuitive the supination response, this is why traditional pitchers at a young age learn this drive and release away from the bodies center of rotational axis (centipetal).
This articulation has your elbow run out of range of motion in the elbow where it crashes it together ballistically in hyper extension. Ouch!
When you turn the forearm to the inside towards the the body with the thumb turning down you are articulating pronation. Pronation occurs when the arm stays towards the body (preferably although you can pronate from the flyout position) and it is more beneficial to articulate pronation from the inside towards the body position where the pronation response is more intuitive. This is why a higher arm vector has pronation work easier because it is more towards you bodies center of rotational axis (axipetal).
This articulation has your elbow extend with out running out of range of motion but close and the elbow hinges ballistically without the injurious effects. Feel good and makes you throw even more powerfully.
You intuitively supinate on all your pitches, it is seen by your finish when your ball arm elbow turns down and in towards your left hip.
There are intuitive involuntary muscle contractions and voluntary ones.
You must voluntarily pronate your drives from as far back as you can and that is best performed by supinating your arm pendulum swing on the way back to its fullest range of motion with your thumb turning up so that you are set up to then pronate your voluntary muscle contractions during this drive and the finish release will bring this pronation to its fullest range of motion and hinge your elbow correctly.
The sport specific training I told you about trains in this motor skill, it kills 2 birds with one stone because you overload train by articulating pronation. If you were to train this way supinating it would tear you up very fast.
You must learn the pitches I told you about and it is easy if you put the work in, I have taught many under 10 year olds how to do this within 3 months, that’s 4 pitches (tailing to the glove arm side fastball, tailing to the ball arm side fastball, screwball and curveball) and usually they understand the axis presentation so well that they then want to learn the Slider and Sinker. I hold them back from these other 2 pitches until they turn 16 but they are aware of them and how to throw them. The training system with its motor skill drills allows for this and works miraculously. You are already close but you need to have your elbow travel up instead of down at finish a much easier thing to do for you than a beginning child.
okay cool i will begin to work on this, but from doing this for many years over time could i have actually hurt myself. And i know you dont believe that the arm is along for the ride, can you explain yourself on how you believe that or how it is true.
You employ the traditional pitching motion, this means you hurt yourself on every pitch you throw. Micro tearing degrades your UCL. Mal –mechanical muscle contractions tear and stress Tendon and muscle tissue causing inflamation, did you ever wonder why you have to take a rest after every long outing just like everybody else and it has nothing to do with energy storage or transfer capacity.
You have been listening to people who do not know that they do not know what they are talking about and when a romor is told by these people it always is circle jerked around to everywhere else by people who refuse to look into what is said and cross-check the information against scientific scrutiny.
There has been plenty of Electromyography (EMG) studies that uses the same methodology as cardiology, which displays the electrical activity in the heart muscle. A surface electrode stuck onto skin overlying a particular muscle is hooked up to a machine that records electrical impulses when the muscle is contracted.
Electromyograms while not fool proof and sometimes give of transient electrical signals called electrical artifacts are sometimes insufficiently (lightly contracted signals and when muscles are flying around including just the movement of the electrodes, then surface electrodes give false data.) sensitive to properly evaluate what muscles contracted but are good enough to give a fair picture of what and when they contract coupled with like timed high speed video to view and evaluate clothless athletes.
Anconeus, wrist flexorpronator, pronator teres, biceps, long and lateral heads of the triceps, pectoralis major, latissimus dorsi, serratus anterior, Subscapularis, flexor carpi radialis, rotator cuff muscles and brachialis activity all drive the arm
Note that the Jobe study said “Results showed that wind-up and early cocking phases showed minimal activity in all muscles, and such firing which occurred was of low intensity” before the acceleration phase began, meaning that getting to where the Humerus is fully outwardly rotated in order to be able to enter the acceleration phase there is minimal activity to transition the humerus during the Humeral/forearm transition phase. This is why Legs, long striding and separation are myths when talking about what drives acceleration in the current mechanical teachings
This is the best thread start and finish on this site and explains the injurious traditional pitching motion in its entirety with poignant and pertinent comments by coach45-Bill Peterson!
Read where it explains why the arm just doesn’t “go along for the ride” in the muscle contractions action of the acceleration phase although there are some disconnections and eccentric contractions with this mechanic that could be changed to satisfy the actual correct Kinetic chain.
Do you believe me now?
So velocity has nothing to do with mechanics or momentum its just all in the arm?
No. That’s not what was said! Momentum is used the minute the acceleration phase starts, it is not much in the current approach to pitching, Just some forwards back bending angulations conserving previous early acceleration phase contractions but none of the momentum built up with the splits crotch drive is used in that it stops long before the acceleration phase starts. The small amounts of rotational momentum is used also that is building up during the acceleration phase also but the previous rotations that are now decelerating and much less lengthier during the acceleration phase art not used. These movement do get you into contractive length that many people incorrectly call stretch.
The core is used during the acceleration phase by the use of the serape effect during the acceleration phase also but trying to assign a percentage is a fools game that does not help anything especially when the arm carries the most percentage. Did you ever wonder how a short stop can be traveling backwards and jump into the air then turn his body and still attaining 80+ MPH across the diamond? Mechanics do give slight differences in velocity but most traditional mechanics are so close that it is minuscule but if you were to say throw sidearm everyone knows this mechanic is slower by a little and if you were to throw backhand it would be a lot. Try not to use all or nothing comments or quotes from others or your self, they are always wrong!
i just posted this video of me
, it looks like im pronating right
Good job Lefty! See your elbow pop up just after release, this is a great sign and what should happen with all the pitches even your Curve. When you get used to this you will see your velocity slightly creep up, then after you finish your training program and go into maintenance mode for Season it will start to jump up a little again after a few weeks of games.
Remember if you are playing in games now do not break vigorous training just to be rested up for those games, use those game as your ballistic portion of your overload workout just after you workout vigorously, I know this sounds stupid but any breaks (rest) in training is detrimental to gaining fitness. Use the games as pure development, nobody should care about winning fall and winter games. You should be going through what’s called training regression at this time and not be strong enough to compete fully because of the vigorous training, this is why showcases, camps, tryouts and competitive games at this time are detrimental to training unless you keep trucking thru them but who wants to be seen when they are in training regression? It just makes you look bad, the best time to be seen is mid to end season.
Now when you finish try to keep it up as long as you can in order to finish with as horizontal an arm as you can without pulling it down and across your chest by rotating 180 degrees with your shoulders hips and legs, this eliminate most of the deceleration unnecessary stress. Also keep your Humerus (upper arm) in line with your shoulders from the start of the pendulum swing all the way through finish and powerfully rotate your shoulders, this eliminates any shoulder injuries.
The ball and arm should arrive at ear height (driveline height) with your thumb up right when your stride leg touches down from heel to toes and then immediately rise your elbow up and drive it by by your ear.
Now see how much you step across the field driveline (the line between second base and home plate that runs through the pitchers plate) almost a full 12 to 14 inches!! Clean that up by stepping 4 inches to the right (glove side of the field driveline) of the field driveline. To help you do this, when you step in with your ball side leg keep your foot up on top of the rubber with your big toe and the 3 toes next to it hanging over the front lip at a 20 degree angle towards home plate Like Sandy Koufax did it, this will lessen the “over early counter rotation” you are now producing that has you step off line and create natural forearm flyout. Don’t kick so high or take your knee backwards. Stay tall and rotate by punching your ball side leg through instead of anchored back at the rubber, this will allow you to lift through your glove side leg to get a higher downwards plain on you pitches and send Kinetic chain power through from the ground up. Now start practicing a fastball Sinker and screwball to enhance the pronation feel and power when you throw your tailing to the ball arm side of home plate fastball, this will be 3 pitches that move to this same direction but with 3 different speeds.
You next goal will be the pronated Cutter, Slider and Curve that will be 3 pitches that move to the glove arm side of home plate with 3 different speeds, then you will have an equal dominating game against either side batters.
Did you get those 10 lb. Wrist weights yet? Did you attain a 6 lb. Ladies shot put yet? There are many drills to learn with them!
Time is a wasting!!! and take that compression sleeve off now you don’t need it any more. You are on your way to a healthy powerful arm.
Hmm in this scenario physical therapy is a really better option i have personally experience of this therapy which is really helpful…