And before we go bashing Dick Mills

General Pitching Topics
#1

We have some posters who have shown Mr. Mills quite a bit of derision, I myself have chimed in and commented on my belief that his chaseing around decrying the towel drill and long toss is wasted breath, beside the point and damaging to his credability. Well one other thing I’ve contended and want to show now is the man does understand mechanics…I don’t completely agree with his assessment on this vid but he makes some very excellent and well directed points.
This site isn’t about beating someone down, Mills is by his own admission and design, controversial, so he can take the heat for his thoughts and the program he makes money off of…but let us not forget…even Mussalini got the trains to run on time :wink:

I’d also like to see what, if anything other than the things Mills sees, do we see? I was struck by 2 things…the leaning back that Mills mentions…but what I consider a huge posture problem, the kid has to clear his head to get his arm through…Mills never mentions this but I think it a major miss.

#2

He did forget to mention the kid seems to be opening up his hips too early as well. But overall, he makes some good points

#3

I suggest that we keep in mind that this is not to be misconstrued as a complete pitching evaluation. So, there are no doubt going to be things he doesn’t mention. He’s using it as a basis for making a couple of specific points. Notice that he didn’t really go into anything about momentum generation, something that is huge with him.

#4

A very fair point, which makes it more interesting from a “whats missing” stand point.
I do though think it reasonable to point out that I was just using a small example of how he does “get it” from a mechanics perspective and I don’t think he’s really gotten even that much good press here for some time…though as I mentioned, he does kind of draw criticism.

#5

Not sure if he mentions it in the video, but it’s kind of ironic he chose Volquez to compare that kids mechanics too seeing how Volquez is going to miss the entire season due to rehabbing from Tommy John surgery.

#6

[quote="|J3|"]Not sure if he mentions it in the video, but it’s kind of ironic he chose Volquez to compare that kids mechanics too seeing how Volquez is going to miss the entire season due to rehabbing from Tommy John surgery.[/quote]Good observation. Just goes to show that your mechanics and conditioning can be as good as anyone and you can still be injured. High risk motion with no gaurantees.

jd
Good points. There do exist some nuggets here and there in what he’s saying. It’s just hard for people to see them amidst all of the talk he puts out there. He brings a lot of it on himself, for sure.

#7

Without trying to imply Mills missed anything…

I agree with JD on the posture issue.

I also see a sequencing problem in that hips and shoulders rotate together.

I (and house) would agree with Mills on the leaning back towards 2B thing. House recommends keep head over or slightly behind the belly button until the spine travels to about 80% of stride length. That would seem to be consistent with what Mills wants.

I (and House) would agree with Mills that the pitcher is behind and not out over the front foot enough at ball release.

And I still say that DM59 is Dick Mills. :goofball:

#8

I was thinking about it yesterday and the kids lean back imo causes everything that is wrong to be wrong. Posture in effect completely hosing his timing which causes him to have to clear his head or his arm won’t get through at all. That little “shortcut” someone tried to impart on the kid to get some momentum early (Even if it was the kids idea)…somebody should have seen that by the time he’s been going to a athletic facility and getting filmed and said “Hey kid…don’t lean back”…but I digress…Is DM actually Dick Mills…? :drunkard: :smartguy: :bigthink: :speechless:
After having argued with both I can tell you…our DM is a much more intellectually honest fellow…one whom I’ve not seen spew pure dogmatic pablum at a near religious fervor…so if you are Dick Mills DM…well we like this portion of your schitzoid personality so what ever flips the switch to that persona, please do continue :wink:
little did you all know…I am the reincarnation of the Great Jerome…and this is all just one big comedy short we are all dreaming through…nyuknyuknyuk.woob woob woob…

#9

My own beef with Dick Mills has more to do with a pervading sense of hucksterism that I get when reading his stuff, more than any problem with what he may get right, or what he may get wrong.

If you go to his YouTube channel, LeftyDM, you’ll find that he subscribes to this guy:

I speak only for myself, obviously, but listening to Jeff Johnson makes me cringe. Then, re-reading Dick Mills’ stuff, in light of Jeff Johnson, makes me cringe again.

I think it is safe to say: Dick Mills is no DM59.

#10

Always remember…the top of the pyramid wins…everybody else is just my payday…an anti-capitalist La? Or just anti-con job :lol: There is a whole wing of the federal prison in Atlanta dedicated to mail fraud… :roll:

I agree that the feel of his ads have always had that snake oil feel. I’d pay someone to develop me a more modern and effective marketing approach if I was him and that is certain.

#11

Nah…I’m not against capitalism and free enterprise, and I’m not against marketing, per se, but I like to think that I have a reasonable chance to get what I pay for.

The main thing about Jeff Johnson, and Dick Mills, that makes me feel uneasy…they seem to intentionally make it as difficult as possible to separate style from substance.

Free enterprise works best when the quality of the product is at least commensurate with the vigor of the marketing campaign.

#12

[quote=“Roger”]And I still say that DM59 is Dick Mills. :goofball:[/quote] :rolllaugh: Ah, Roger, you slay me!! As you should know, DM really stands for Dr. Mike. :bigb: What I still get, after all these years, is “where’s your other brother Darrell”. Amazing. Well, it’s even worse in the last couple of years because my boss’ name is also Darrell. Yeesh!! I can’t get away from that one. The younger crowd on here won’t even know what I’m talking about. Go to 2:30 in the following.

[quote=“laflippin”]I think it is safe to say: Dick Mills is no DM59.[/quote]Thanks, la, although I’m sure Dick Mills would be happy about that.

He’s really no different in style (content is another story) than Paul Nyman or Mike Marshall. Here you have 3 guys who are convinced that they have knowledge about this subject matter that nobody else has. As a result, they want to inform everyone else of how wrong the others are. Some just have better content than others.

#13

In my younger, more temperamental years, my reaction to above statement would likely have been…. :evil: :x :shock:

But now that I’m a little older, perhaps an ounce wiser, and have mellowed out considerably…

“Okay…So where do they park the Lamborghini’s?” :wink:

#14

I pondered our recent and past postings on the issue of this fellow and didn’t want one of these…though if you hang the entire scene you may find a comforting bit of irony;

I myself have misgivings about him based on his railing against drills that men whom I personally know and who have more professional and coaching experience, find to actually have validity and as our friend La mentioned he seems to be very similar in his pitch to a…hummmm…car salesman you might see at 2am (NO offense people gotta eat but…) on a local TV station…but because we try to actually consider things around here I thought I’d look through his stuff on YouTube (Where he resisted more than just dismissal of my questioning of his wisdom on the subject of drills…how much emphasis and venom he directs towards them vs how much these activities actually are used in the whole scope of advanced pitcher preparation). Anyway I happened upon this session and could find no material disagreement with his assessment and approach…so I said to myself…“self…Dick deserves some love for this here crud…” and boom there you go. He’s sort of been somewhat maimed intentionally here…and I figure if he comes around here it’s gonna look like this;

So I consider it somewhat of a public service and peace offering in the same package…might have saved some skin :wink:

#15

his favorite technique is to actually say some intelligent things in the beginning of a video or email newsletter, and then conclude from those points that THEREFORE long toss, weighted balls and lifting weights are useless and you should start caring more about your son’s career and by my product for just $300 blah blah.

he tries to sneak in shit like that and before I knew any better 3 years ago I actually believed him for a little while. He’s taking advantage of people, he knows it, and he doesn’t care because it makes him money.

#16

I’ve got to say, Dick Mills knows his stuff, in my opinion. More importantly, he knows how to TEACH mechanics in a way that is understandable for kids and parents who may not know all of the baseball jargon and lingo that gets thrown around. Sure, his choice of marketing strategy is sketchy, but otherwise, his materials and teachings are solid.

I purchased his programs nearly 3 years ago and I have been extremely pleased. His materials are very thorough and like I said, he explains things very well. He is also big on functional strength and has a great conditioning program for pitchers, as well.

I think it is fair to say that most people bash him because he chose to buy into the Jeff Johnson/Dan Kennedy/John Carlton method of internet marketing. I’m not a big fan (as most of you aren’t either, I take it), but it does work or he wouldn’t be doing it. He just has to take the hits if he wants to continue to create such controversy with his marketing.

But I would urge people to look past all of that… the bottom line is he DOES know what he is doing when it comes to pitching instruction. He is very accessable through his member’s forum and his programs are reasonable for the quality.

On a personal note, I purchased his stuff to teach my then 10 year old son. I was a former pitcher, but didn’t really know how to articulate what it was that I did so that he could “get it”. Like I said, Dick has a way of TEACHING mechanics in a way that kids and parents “get”.

I’m sure he’s not the only guy out there who does an excellent job of this but he stands behind his stuff and so far, I like what his help has done for my son.

I hope that helps!

#17

It does and thanks for posting it.
Mills is very easy to be critical of but I feel that there had to be “something” there…my problem, as with the much more jingoistic and demi-god like Mike Marshall (Retired now I hear) is that you have to fight like a tiger or lay out money to actually see what he offers…all the while having to deal with “absolute” statements that really cannot be backed up scientifically but imply that if you or your student/kid utilize them you are either A) Stupid or B) A child abuser…very frustrating when you want to hear what they “really” advocate or are saying.
I also know personally that he doesn’t deal well with other points of view or questions regarding the theory or thought process behind his making those “absolute” statements.
LTP is dedicated to getting to the “nut” of the issue, we want truth and true feelings from both perspectives. Baseball is a strange and ironic game, a great player can actually learn something from a neophite or a tremendous coach may be able to get most to understand something but only a rookie coach might get it across to the one guy who can’t get it from the great one.
I know my son has been coached by men at the very top of the art…including major league pitchers and pitching coaches…learned the most from a catcher and an ex-minor league short-stop turned pitcher and then pitching coach for a d-1 school but when ever he would run into a wall with them, they would get another perspective in there for a lesson or two and “bam” it clicked.
Mills knows mechs, just listen to his way points in the vids, very valid and pertainent to getting that kid into a more efficient and subsequently higher velocity situation and I wanted that to be brought out. The other criticisms have been the basis for Mills in discussions here so it was in fairness that I began the thread.

#18

I hear you… and I agree.

I will say though, that with regard to Mills, he does give out quite a bit of info on his site and his e-newsletters and other video posts. He’s not nearly as “secretive” as many of the others; he just promotes the heck out of his program by using the before-mentioned “internet marketing gurus”.

Yes, he does not deal well with others’ points of view and he tends to only rely on his “science-backed” info. Now, I’m no scientist and I am not about to research all of his references of study upon study, but I do like his common sense approach to different arguments. For example, he states that according to scientific studies, long-toss has little to no impact on increasing velocity. Nor does strength training. Now, he is not saying to not do these things. What he says is that emphasis should be placed on pitching - from a mound, and working to replicate solid mechanics. Instead, young pitchers are looking for the “magic bullet” that doesn’t exist. They spend too much time “strengthening their arm” rather than pitching practice. Why practice a movement that is so different than the activity you are trying to improve upon? According to him, the non-throwing arm remains just as strong as the throwing arm after long-toss programs - did it really get stronger or did the individual just get better at long-tossing? Does all of that time spent in the gym getting bigger and stronger really pay off? Maybe a young pitcher’s increase in velocity can merely be attributed to his natural growth and development as he ages.

I actually think Dick does a good job of bringing up all of these topics and making parents more aware. He doesn’t profess to have the “secret” or the “magic bullet” like many may think he does. (Again, we can blame his marketing ploys as the reason behind his poor reputation - it’s unfortunate).

#19

See this is where I get all out in the weeds on ya…can you name me a single…any athletic movement/endeavor that isn’t made better by slo-mo practise movements? Shadow boxing? Even bowling…darts…sprinting, hurdles, vaults…I try I just can never ever come up with any
Long toss with me is a thing of joy…it is an expression of my ability to throw distance safely (We did it hours on end as kids back before Tommy John was nothing more than a half decent “crafty lefty”). Jeager has a solid following and solid success so somethin’s happenin there…but for me it’s the joy of “chunking”…how could that not get me better balance while doing a ballistic movement, or allow my entire body to feel and adjust to using the entire frame to develop and then deliver power…how can a black belt for just one example, use that focus learned at that art to transfer over to ours.
I agree with Mills on one hand, as a high level pitcher one should be extremely mindful of “productive” conditioning, his railing as a scare ploy at drills that can be considered and are considered productive by professionals detracts from his valid arguement. If weights and conditioning had zero import or even negative effect then you wouldn’t see it in the college or pro ranks like you do. No amount of mech knowledge can convince me that Dick Mills trumps the collective knowledge and experience of those folks.