3 very popular myths about your pitching mechanics, enjoy!
I’m enjoying reading your article ThinkTank
I thought that was a very insightful essay about some substantial controversies in pitcher training.
Marshall and his camp seemed to have originated the ‘forceful pronation’ cottage industry that has infected pitcher training over the past 5 - 6 years. However, with the popular spread of high-quality slo-mo video, especially of elite pitchers, there has been an increased awareness that human anatomy does normally require pronation of the forearm-wrist-hand immediately after every throw. Even though Tom House explicitly noted as early as 1988 (The Winning Pitcher) that high-speed film shows all pitchers naturally pronate after every type of pitch release, Marshall apparently has preferred to have us believe that he invented pronation (having been primarily a screwball pitcher with a plus curve and a very minus FB, one can imagine where he got that idea). Lantz (BBThinkTank) thoughtfully reminds us that intentional pronation is unnecessary as a teaching point, because pitchers already do pronate on every throw…whether they intend to or not.
The so-called ‘inverted W’ controversy seems to be little more than a desperate cry for attention and relevancy in the baseball world from self-styled “mechanics analyst” Chris O’Leary. In his usual drive-by fashion, O’Leary jumped on the ‘inverted W’ concept originally described by Paul Nyman, sophomorically distorted its meaning, looked at a bunch of stills, and then he took up a scholarly-looking “counterpoint” position. Of course, for those who have been around awhile, you will recognize a characteristic O’Leary pattern here: “Since I debate with important thinkers, I therefore am also an important thinker”. “Since real baseball players actually talk to me sometimes, I must be really something big in the world of baseball”, etc, etc. There is no question that O’Leary is tireless in his quest for an undeserved mantle of authority within internet baseball forums.
I thought the balance-point discussion was a very good one–and a more legitimate point for serious consideration and debate than either of the other two issues. Lantz has clearly seen a lot of Japanese baseball…“stop-at-the-top” deliveries are much more common among Japanese pitchers than in the West. In Japan this type of delivery is used to effectively disrupt the hitters’ timing. But, a few American pitchers also use a variable-length “stop-at-the-top” delivery as well–Dan Haren comes readily to mind. At his best, Haren’s delivery was low- to mid-90’s and so the pause at the top of his delivery never seemed to hurt his momentum any. This controversial question probably doesn’t have a single answer that will ever make sense for all.
Good call on Haren, forgot about him.
Do you have video of Haren?
Yes, a little:
From 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TU1oWv1Q5Yc
From 2008: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MwOpvWfzLY
Great stuff, Lantz…keep up the terrific work!
The interesting thing with Kershaw is that his leg kick is almost useless. He balances over his drive leg and picks up his leg then drops it down near the ground before pushing off again. In a sense, its almost like hes in the stretch. So hes pretty much throwing from the stretch all the time.
Not enjoyed !!! But will contribute.
[quote]“1. The Inverted W increases the risk for injury and pronation of the arm decreases the risk:”[/quote]
It should read:
The inverted “W” as witnessed at glove side foot plant increases the valgus stress on the MCL (UCL) later at the beginning of the forwards acceleration phase because of it’s timing issue and pronation of the forearm during the acceleration phase eliminates ballistic bone crash within the elbow.
When you finally understand this you will actually help youth pitchers eliminate the pathologies they produce with this mechanical timing and forearm action!
Understand that no forwards acceleration can start until the Humerus has reached outwards rotation to some degree and best at full range of motion and at length.
It pretty much has been Kinesiologically proven that by not performing outwards rotation of your Humerus during your pendulum swing phase to arrival to full range of motion or at least 50% of outwards rotation during this phase as does Kershaw and some others that you will then perform it much later and much more violently by leaving your forearm down (pronated) with hand on top. This action has you attain full range of outwards rotation of the Humerus during the separated rotational acceleration phase leaving your arm then intuitively off to the side and bouncing backwards Pliometrically and not allowing you to perform the forwards acceleration phase during much the rotational acceleration phase, negating much of it’s shoulder rotational length during drive.
This action later micro tears your MCL with each pitch until it finally gives way.
Notice, Wolforth as I did, calls you out on this because we know Kershaw passes through “w” and arrives with his Humerus in almost the right position partially outwardly rotated (shoulder external rotation) at glove side foot plant. You again with video now actually stop the video with Kershaws leg still up during drop in, just to prove your point. Try stopping the video when the foot firmly plants (not at the beginning of touch) and the walking response triggers when it counts in the principle. You can fool most with this technique but will not get away with it with me and some others.
So, repeating this false information means you do not learn or understand, I still have hope for you especially sinse I now know you are a dad also. When you see him intuitively supinate (if you recognize it) I guarantee you will do something about it.
Why don’t you tell us all what Nymans exact definition of the term means and when it is performed when weighing it against when the glove foot firmly plants since you or any others including Paul ever does this for clarification ??? Please! Or have Paul do it because he runs from my posts if I ask him.
By posting the stills you did at many different foot plant timings leaves people thinking you know what you are talking about when you have no point of reference that shows you do and why you don’t really understand the controversy. Pitchers can actually pass through the inverted W and arrive with your forearm and Humerus also outwardly rotated at foot plant almost correctly to avoid hard Valgus bounce and drive from more directional length.
Do you understand range of motion? I think not. Do you believe in stills, I believe you do and why you continually get this wrong just like House and his followers.
Dr.Marshall’s argument has nothing to do with recovery phase “involuntary pronation snapback.” If you do not understand this why comment on it ?
Dr.Marshall wants forearm pronation from supination full range motion at the start of the forwards acceleration phase. This protects at 2 points of Kinesiological action. First it stops the elbow from crashing together from ballistic hyper extension from supination. Second it contracts the muscles of the flexor mass that pulls the ulna towards the radius relieving stress across the MCL during drive and start of drive.
This is reason enough to teach it to little Rex. Mother would if she knew the information!! Maybe you are incapable of this protection like most type “A” males?
Please explain to us all why you have dumped the anti-pronation article 3 and 4 by Paul Nyman? Don’t tell me he is afraid to go on record or actually learned the truth ? Maybe because O’Leary agrees with Dr.Marshall on this, he can’t? What a shame, I really would like to read his thoughts on this important principle. What are we all to think now?
The word you are misusing here is “forceful” although it is also forceful, the Kinesiological word is “Voluntary contraction” or just voluntary. It is just one of the many tenets. I know you know the right verbage but can’t bring yourself to use Kinesiological terminology taught to you by Dr.Marshall that is correct.
Who cares this is not the principle that is being explained! Only voluntary pronation of the forearm during the forwards acceleration phase eliminates drive pathologies. This is just more fog that does not pertain, you guys like to throw out. You and others contiually get the timeline confused and misunderstood.
To bad the sport psychologist Dr.House did not understand the same things all these other commenter’s like yourself need to understand before making misleading observations. You giving House any credit on this is laughable. Get it right!
Boy you take the cake for disinformation (apparently), like others who do not understand the information. I guess being the president of the Marshall haters club has it’s drawbacks?
The Kinesiologist Dr.Marshall only explains it’s mechanical actions in understandable detail, he also explains the opposite action (antagonist) supination during the acceleration phase and claims no ownership, how could you possibly get this wrong? Explanatory Kinesiological discovery within a particular mechanic is valid and has merit. Marshall is not talking about recovery pronation!!!
Dr. Marshall did not throw a curveball of any kind, he was taught how to throw one and broke two ribs because of it months later by trying to “pull down the shade” and gave up on it early and long before his research. This injury is probably what drove him to the research along with other senarios. He was an all star Short stop most of his minor league career. He did invent the pronated curve while an NCAA head coach and professor of Kinesiology.
Why imagine? when he tells you and shows you right when he did the research at Michigan state in the late 60ies and early 70ies that proved it’s efficacy with the first of it’s kind High speed film (500 frames a second) that also employed the first strobe assist that is still used today by others like House. This makes him a pioneer in the field although he has to battle against the arrows in the back by you and others.
Thoughtfully or not he is wrong and so are you by repeating your acceptance of it.
Let me explain what you are actually seeing so you can finally understand what you are all missing. Lantz pay attention here if you really want to learn these mechanics as you say you want to at your site.
When viewing high speed video you can observe drive forearm rotational (non-injurious) pronation, nominal forearm position (injurious) and supinated forearm (injurious) rotation.
When you perform any of the 3 your forearm recovers in pronation because it has no other place to go and is involuntary. Involuntary means there was no conscious contraction to cause this.
When you intuitively (youth) or voluntarily (youth and adults) supinate your forewords acceleration phase (curves, Sliders, Cutters and some fastballs) your thumb flies up and your elbow goes forwards then down during the phase having your elbow run out of range of motion meaning it can go no further in it’s extension range of motion and slams the olecranon process into it’s Fossa on the epicondyle with ballistic force in hyper extension long before the witnessed and incorrectly explained next action. The very next action that you all mistake as voluntary pronation is actually “Involuntary pronation snap back” after release the other way after the injurious crash that we are trying to get you all to understand.
When you pronate your acceleration phase correctly you also maintain pronation and you will see the elbow pop up Like Lincecum and Kershaw at release and recovery. The elbow does not crash with this mechanic and can be produced with all pitch types if you learn them and are much more powerful and lengthy.
You have this right in that O’Leary a novice like Nyman e-mailed Dr.Marshall and had this explained to him in detail, just as Dr.Marshall explained in person to Nyman why this mechanic is problematic. O’Leary now had something to say while standing on his novice soap box and took full advantage of it to come back at Paul because Paul called him something derogatory in public, meaning this is just a feud between a novice and a rank novice on the subject and in the same way you e-mail Dr.Marshall with your very rude and always incorrect assumptions and he always answers you with class and dignity that really gets to you, so you write these negative comments when ever you get the chance.
Who does this remind you of think?
Who does this remind you of Paul?
O’Leary is your clone and probably got his enthusiasm by reading your non-sense. He is your creation. At least he gets it half right sometimes.
The same can be said of your sycophant frustration of Dr.Marshalls continual mechanics bashing of the admitted and original PED’S user Tom House (your guru) because of his very minus FB.
It’s very understandable for those of us who know the truth and have been around a while.
Good observation G, as with all pitchers, the leg lift and drop in with all it’s momentum have no effect on velocity and is not projected into the acceleration phase. Your forwards momentum from drop in is immediately stopped from glove side foot plant for quite a while before the forwards acceleration phase even starts. It is basically a disruption in the kinetic chain and useless in the conventional mechanic.
You got it and this begs the question, why have two motions to learn?
Rob Nen who I know personally dropped his leg down and touched the hill in front of him coming to a complete stop twice before he started his forwards acceleration phase and threw 104 at one time.
This has been explained in Kinesiological detail also by Dr.Marshall, this is why it is important to get the center of mass to be traveling ahead of the drive (ball side leg) leg, then ahead of the next drive (glove side leg) leg.
This can only be done with a tall posture, short stride and overlapping the rotational acceleration phase with the forwards acceleration phase while you are still driving the body forwards Like a crowhopping outfielder or long throw infielders perform.
I know this puts a lot of holes in the triple extension (what ever that is) and long stride believers but it is what it is. No velocity is derived from dropping in momentum like everybody wants you to believe. It does allow you to achieve length in waiting contracting drive muscles when the acceleration phases kick in but your body is completely still in lower half and center of mass forwards movement. It is basically a postural setter.
This is what allows Kershaw to get his Humerus outwardly rotated further along by the time his glove side foot firmly plants. This allows him to eliminate much of the MCL stress along with his supinated arrival then pronated pitches that protect his elbow.
Glad to have you back. :lol:
As requested, the article on pronation has been received, check back on Friday, it will be posted.
While you’re here, I have a few questions about Tyler Matzek’s delivery in high school before he reached pro ball?
Why does Tyler have a leg kick?
Why does Tyler rotate so aggressively?
Why does he look nothing like Marshall’s model?
Could it be true, that you actually took bits and pieces of Marshall’s tenents coupled with the belief that velocity is dependent upon rotation?
That’s great, I thought he went foghorn leghorn on us! What a rewrite he must have had to go through, I must apologize for making him go through this better effort.
It will be interesting to see if he for the first time actually gives us some applied anatomy and Kinesiological theory to digest instead of the tired old technique of saying something that is passed down by yardmyth and platitudes that people readily accept as truth.
Maybe because he took much more time to produce this thing he actually looked into what an overhead acceleration graph is to prove his assertions on arm circular path and what the ramifications are with redirection of right angle momentum and dampening from body tissues and lengthening antagonist muscles so he can explain physics in their earthy state instead of in a free bearing vacuum. I doubt it because ASMI and the NPA do not use or know what these are either.
Oh wait, I’m sorry, You don’t answer questions that do not bolster your locked in opinion! This shouldn’t be to painful to answer.
While you’re here, I have a few questions about Tyler Matzek’s delivery in high school before he reached pro ball?
Because he chooses to do so, so he would be handed the ball.
I recommend all my 13 yo’s that have been performing the full crowstep motion for years, start a leg lift so they will be handed the ball. Been there and done the other to no avail.
Tyler throw over 100 mph just walking forwards.
Because rotation during the 2 drive phases is one of the components to velocity. And he has been trained to achieve rotational intent because of his previous interval training when he was with me.
Because you do not understand or recognize the top half model even when perfected.
Tyler I believe has just enough to eliminate most of the main injuries if he trains correctly, he arrives almost correctly and pronates all his pitch types that were 6 back then, good luck with that because he will never go into complete training regression in the fall and winter because pro ball does not demand it and I refuse to work with professionals, especially ones that all ready have the information and choose to do it the traditional way. Playing meaningless fall ball games perturbs the interval training timeline! Once your fit (takes 2 years) and on the maintenance program then year round competition is the way to do it.
Now add in the fact that 95% of all coaches think like you, in the traditional rest rut.
Dr.Marshall says all professional MILB pitchers should live at the spring training facility and start “sport specific” interval training immediately after their championship season ends and because of the regression would not be able to pitch competitively.
Do you know what training regression is? I think not because of your previous contentions about ASMI’s sham comparison with the 4 Marshall pitchers who went there during their recoil cycles to test ASMI’s protocol for what it really is.
More than bits and pieces! He has what is known as a hybrid motion that is fighting breaking back down the other way with the years of exposure to non experts in the field . Even Dr.Marshall acquiesced to get his pitchers to be handed the ball at one time. The top half mechanics are much harder to maintain if the crow step motion is not also performed but can if the training program is adhered to correctly and the tenets are maintained.
Performing the Crow step lower half only eliminates those injuries (Lower back degradation, Knee and hip degradation) but allows a much better leg drive. Most people are OK with these debilitating injuries later in life if they make it to the show, Tommy John may disagree though now with his complete hip replacement surgery but hind site has it’s drawbacks, Are you aware that many long performing MLB pitchers go through this and complete knee replacement like Dr.Marshall has? are you aware that a low %age of these knee and hip surgeries end up in death.
Yes, rotation of the shoulders (rotational acceleration phase) is very important and especially when the arm contractions (forwards acceleration phase) is compounded with it from a straight start unlike the conventional motion where pitchers “over early counter rotate” past the field driveline and waste contractive motion because of negative math then and redirection of right angled momentum.
Do you realize that the rotation performed when the conventional leg lift and drop in are performed is poorly timed and only partially used?
Do you understand that when rotation is used with a crowstep leg action that it is synced with forwards momentum and both legs are used the way we walk and run and you attain lengthier movements unlike the conventional lift and drop splits drive in where the glove side leg plants and converts this small amount of forwards mass into heat at the ground by completely stopping it.
This is why Don Larson went to it when Yogi told him he threw much faster when he just walked forwards. This happened just 5 weeks before his world series perfecto, this puts serious holes in your contention (I should say Paul’s here since non of these thoughts are your own) that mechanics should not be changed, even though you yourself change mechanics. Oh, I know he walks and runs every day so performing both is no problem and a poor comparison to upper half mechanics.
Now go back to my previous post to you and answer my question please. Quid pro quo if you are to be believed, this is necessary.
Why does Tyler have a leg kick?
[quote]Because he chooses to do so, so he would be handed the ball.
I recommend all my 13 yo’s that have been performing the full crowstep motion for years, start a leg lift so they will be handed the ball. Been there and done the other to no avail.[/quote]
Your starting to “come around” as we say in the South. Congrats to you… you aided in a kid reaching his dream of being a 1st round pick by giving him freedom and piecing together a delivery that works for him. A guy that throws 90 plus from the left side. You obviously realized strictly Marshall’s tenets would not give him a chance either way. Nice work!!!
It’s ironic, that Matzek’s only link to Marshall is pronation. Why doesn’t Marshall send Matzek to ASMI being Matzek has perfected the top half model.
”Why does he look nothing like Marshall’s model?”
I was assuming since Marshall tested at ASMI, he would bring his model that in his eyes were perfected, similar to this guy…
Being that was Marshall’s video on YouTube, I naturally assume that was his model. Is that perfected or is it Matzek that has perfected it?
I don’t see them being anywhere the same, regardless of the lower body. I see Tyler’s arm rotating vs the very linear arm path of the Marshall’s perfected upper body mechanics.
I think we are all confused here based on the information. You criticize each and everyone that doesn’t follow his teachings but you mix and match where you see fit.
Based on Matzek’s delivery, I’m starting to think we agree on a few things |:lol
Apparently we agree again, how ironic. Just like you, I choose what I believe are the experts in the field and based on the results that I have seen at the collegiate and pro level, why would I change. You could also add
100’s of players that I have also learned from, not just one guy.
I realize when there is someone that knows much more than I do about the physics of throwing the baseball, ie… Paul Nyman
I do not think everyone should look exactly the same and apparently you don’t either based on Tyler’s video. You pick and choose what you feel is important and go with it, who’s that sound like?
I didn’t see any questions, only sarcastic comments. How would Freud interpret your arguments?.. hmmmm… I won’t comment.
I know what I’m going to do, I’m going to call in Sherlock Holmes and see what he says.
Nymans stuff is yielding outstanding results for me. i have actually had success beyond the standard margin of mph increase with basically no sore arms, better command and movement, and added deception. And my players dont have the forced postures like alot of todays kids are showing. But i have a good grasp of the material and am a critical thinker which is rarely found in baseball coaching. So for me Paul’s stuff is the way to go if you can apply it.
I do like think tank and rosengren also. I see them as trying to carry Paul’s torch which is nice since setpro is MIA. Also some good thoughts on these forums in general and people are always willing to help, even if they disagree often.
Here’s what I truly don’t understand.
If Dr. Marshall’s tenets are so superior as espoused by yardbird, then where are the guys using these mechanics who are throwing ++ fastballs or even + fastballs?
I do however, see these velocities from guys using principals of House, Nyman, etc.
And please, no more of conspiracy against Marshall or his followers.
Marshall and his cult-followers have for years been dancing around the straightforward questions you raised…collectively, this very small but extremely insistent group of folks has amassed more smoke-and-mirror arguments in support of their fantasies than all of the world’s perpetual motion advocates combined.
They truly have generated an impressive, almost mind-numbing, list of excuses, conspiracies, accusations, “proofs by assertion”, and marvelous techno-babble rants to explain away their unremitting failure to produce any results.
A must-read for those interested in the still-ongoing Mike Marshall circus act: “Voodoo Science” by renowned physicist Robert Park. Park’s book is full of highly entertaining stories of various types of voodoo science scams perpetrated on the world.
These can range from outright cons designed by adept con-men to people who started out with good intentions but who eventually crossed the line into self-deception and/or fraud as their failures to produce verifiable results piled up over the years. Personally, I think Marshall & his followers fit very well in the latter group.
Exactly the points I would like to hear discussed. I read all of the dancing, sidestepping and accusing “conventional mechanics” gurus of being ignorant and causing harm to their students.
Yet I can’t seem to get the answers as to where is the competitive velocity. Where are the pitchers using their tenets?
At the risk of doom and destruction… :shock:
In all of my years of “reading tea leafs”, goats entrails, O’Leary posts… :pullinghair: …our good buddies Yardbird, Dirtberry, Coach45, my old pal Jake Patterson from Baseball Fever and the host of others…I think Marshall knows how to rehabilitate an arm, I think that is his orientation, what he’s tried to teach, what he’s researched.
I think the methods he and the crew use are those of labor (Marshall being touted as the guy who broke MLB, not Curt Flood)…so demonization, and any of the other stereo-typical union tactics…conspiracy, redirection…inflamed rhetoric…all are used to promote their point.
I think Lon is a committed and caring coach who has results, he has researched and worked to develop his program…not much different than all who do try to help kids succeed. I see enough room in it all for him and the others whose techniques may not correspond with my view.
I will diverge from my good friend Laflippin in that I don’t think the Marshallites are in it to bilk the public per say (Voodoo science to me at least inferes nefarious intent to profit off of the pseudo-science)…I just see their tactics correspond…I think if Dr. Mike held his powder and charged excessively…he’d be considered “a destination” and he’d have the flock that House has (Much of it depending on personality, House being open and approachable and the good Dr. maybe not so much)…he doesn’t because he isn’t active in the ways House is (And I think Tom House is as Dirt/Yard/Lon described him…the very best non-shrink “shrink” in the sport), my respect for House being based on how he tries to increase the level of skill for coaches all over the country, through so many platforms.
Pro baseball players of very high caliber respect him in the ways that they have described…as in Ryans HOF speech…or any number of direct quotes from all time greats.
I guarantee if Dr. Mike took it on the road and trained/certified coaches that the attendance of coaches would be similar to House Coach events…
I really love our site though, each of us has opportunity to express what we see and how come we see it that way…it can be ponderous and in some cases “Way over the top”…all of it worthy of airing
jd, I agree completely there is room for all opinions…and you and I actually are in agreement that Marshall’s intent was for the best, at least in the beginning. But, there are many flavors of voodoo science (you have got to read that book–I guarantee you’d appreciate Robert Park). After years and years of making extremely bombastic claims, years and years of failing to show any clear substantiation of those claims, Marshall et al. have degenerated into making excuse after excuse after excuse.
In my opinion, the mature solution would be to stop making the bombastic claims and the myriad excuses, and trot out very clear results. But…that’s not really part of the plan for voodoo science, no matter what path to voodoo the “scientist” happened to take or how good his original intentions might have been.
Part of the smoke-and-mirrors basic claim, oft repeated by Marshall himself,is that no one in the world knows anything worth knowing about pitching mechanics except for Mike Marshall. Well…if we accept that premise, then the audience group that understands MM is de facto limited to 1 person…he’s talking to himself, and everyone else is just gaping at the view.
Accepting the man’s self-proclaimed, utterly remarkable genius for the sake of argument…okay, posit that no one understands pitching like Mike Marshall. No one. His understanding soars far beyond everyone else’s…he is literally the Albert Einstein of pitching theory. But wait, something is wrong here…real science is reproducible…real results can be verified if they are correct, even by lesser minds if only they have the formula outlined by the genius. That’s why Einstein is considered a real scientific genius and not just another voodoo scientist…even though many of his highly controversial theories were difficult for most people to understand at first pass, almost all of his elegant ideas have been verified experimentally over the years.
However, if there are no supporting results despite a lot of serious scrutiny, or if all attempts to demonstrate the truth of claims fall short and are replaced by excuse after excuse…um, then we are left with “proof by assertion”…a paraphrase for “trust me”.
We’ll have to disagree on your opinion that Marshall and the material he teaches would be just as successful as House and his material, if only Marshall would change the way he markets himself…in case you haven’t heard, there is still no known method for converting lead into gold, or a sow’s ear into a silk purse. Illegal PEDs swept through baseball, ruined reputations, changed the game, because…even though they are potentially dangerous and definitely illegal they actually do enhance performance. Rampant EPO use ruined the reputation of cycling and basically every pro cyclist, not because it didn’t work…but because it does work. The weird-looking Fosbury Flop rapidly changed the way many high-jumpers approach their craft because…it worked. (Fortunately, the Flop was not deemed illegal). Pro pitchers (and youth pitchers) flock to House because…his approach to training pitchers works.
If Marshall’s approach produced pitchers who were clearly attaining the kinds of goals that pitchers want to achieve in baseball…Marshall would be overwhelmed with clients.
Ask yourself if you would entrust your own kid’s training as a pitcher to Mike Marshall…hey, his stuff is free so nothing to risk except the commitment itself…would you do it? No, I didn’t think so.
Maybe rehab a bad arm as I said. Then again I wouldn’t have him attend Mills or the “Triple-action crowd” either…though apparently they have their bit of success to hold on to.
No I get your perspective…believe me, I’ve spent some bandwidth in these discussions…I guess I know there are other coaching styles which I’m not comfortable with…but are very successful (Bobby Knight or Billy Martin), so meh…I think he knows how to rehab an arm, I wouldn’t approach him to develop a MLB pitcher…which to me is the point I was making.
No I don’t think Dr. Marshall would be “as successful” as House…as I said personality plays such a major role…he’d have success though.