2007 weight baseball study?


#1

I don’t think this stuff is for real and the reasons are:

Does this study take in to account that growth of the players during this study. Because grow can increase velocity. Also as the season goes on increase velocity from better mechaincs could play a big part too.

Does this study take in account that maybe the players weren’t conditioned and this was a false positive because it gave them the little conditioning that they need just like using tubing?

Do this study to MlB pitchers then I will say ok if they improved velocity with this then it’s not growth or poor conditioning.

What do you think does it work?

http://www.stevenellis.com/steven_ellis_the_complete/files/2007_weighted_baseball_study.pdf


#2

Well, I’m a firm believer that using weighted balls properly can give most pitchers a 3-5 mph boost. I think it can mess with your mechanics, but I think it will increase your velocity. So for those first two studies, I’d say that it was believeble. Now the third one, that is not simply weighted balls at work there. With all the lower body explosive work and conditioning incorporated as well, its not a surprise that they saw an average gain of 8mph. That program would give any unconditioned person a sizeable boost. SO I’d have to say that there are too many variables that need to be isolated in the third one before we say it was the weighted balls. Can’t argue with 74 to 90 in 11 weeks tho… :shock:


#3

I think the boast is because the pitchers weren’t in shape to pitch like they should have been and it was a false positive because they got stronger because they were weak and they would have got that velocity if they were conditioned right in the first place.

Did Nolan Ryan,Roger Clemens, Tim Lincecum or any other MlB pitcher use this to get better?


#4

[quote=“RIstar”]I think the boast is because the pitchers weren’t in shape to pitch like they should have been and it was a false positive because they got stronger because they were weak and they would have got that velocity if they were conditioned right in the first place.

Did Nolan Ryan,Roger Clemens, Tim Lincecum or any other MlB pitcher use this to get better?[/quote]

OK, the whole Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, Linecum thing, these guys worked hard, yes. BUT did you ever consider these guys were genetically intended to throw 90+mph. Maybe everyone isn’t as gifted genetically.
Actually not maybe, I KNOW everyone is not as gifted genetically

There’s MULTIPLE PUBLISHED studies showing COLLEGE pitchers gaining mph on their pitchers after throwing weighted balls.

There’s very little discussion for them not being fit to pitch.
If you UNDERSTOOD a proper study you would realize a CONTROL GROUP is used. These are guys that just throw the standard 5 oz ball.
The CONTROL GROUP gained statistically insignifant velocity or even lost velocity.

There’s MULTIPLE studies with college players gaining mph on their pitches.

Steven Ellis, the guy that created this site, and a brilliant coaching mind no less gained velocity throwing weighted balls.

Now, what exactly don’t you understand?


#5

I think yes you could add 3-4 mph bt you could do that by training the right way. I got a boost of 5-6 mph using tubing it’s the same thing but one more safe then the other. Stop wasting time on things that aren’t going to help you when you are in game and need the out. The added velocity is nice but study’s have found tubing to be able to do the same thing more safe and you can focus on mechaincs and pitching from a mound.


#6

You contort everything away from actual fact.

First off bands are generally only prehab. They are used to prevent rotator cuff injury more so than ever build velocity.

Saying that bands makes you throw harder goes against erything you say around here.
To say bands make you throw harder would be to say you throw the ball with only your arm practically.
A FAR CRY from you body makes your arm a whip doctrine.

WHO SAYS WHAT’S THE RIGHT WAY.

If you were so smart you would use BOTH methods of training and throw even harder.

I’d REALLY like to see your so called studies on safety of bands versus weighted balls because there is no possible way to isolate a variable and perform a realistic study.
I have little respect for people that magically formulate scientific data to suite their own opinions.

SUPPORT IT FOR ONCE. LINK ME TO A STUDY. YOU NEVER BACK UP YOUR OPINION, YOU ONLY STATE THEM AND TELL EVERYONE ELSE THEY ARE WRONG

IF you just state your opinion that’s cool. BUT SHOW SOME FREAKING EVIDENCE IF YOU THINK YOUR SMARTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

You have a lot to learn young man, and the sooner you realize that, the better chances you have to become a dominant ball player.


#7

I gained velocity using weighted baseballs, but I was also working out for up to 3 hours a day – doing medicine ball stuff, plyometric stuff, sprintwork, lightweight shoulder exercises, corework, and tons of stretching … seriously, a lot of stretching!

I also threw nearly every single day since I was 11 years old. (I took the falls off to play soccer right up until college and pro ball, where we played a fall season.)

I started using weighted baseballs in the off-season while in college and did them every year after that. Did them for two months in the off-season, right up until I started throwing bullpens in February to gear up for spring training.

Was it the weighted baseballs alone that enabled me to throw hard? Of course not. I was already throwing 90 mph BEFORE I ever touched a weighted baseball.

BUT, the weighted baseballs combined with ALL the other stuff I was doing helped me get about 5 or 6 more mph out of my arm.

This is why I’m not against mature pitchers using them … but they’re also not a magic bullet. If you do ALL the other things I did – throwing daily, developing fitness. working on mechanics – weighted baseballs may work for you, too.

Do nothing but weighted baseballs, though, and you’ll probably be disappointed.


#8

[quote=“Steven Ellis”]
Was it the weighted baseballs alone that enabled me to throw hard? Of course not. I was already throwing 90 mph BEFORE I ever touched a weighted baseball.

BUT, the weighted baseballs combined with ALL the other stuff I was doing helped me get about 5 or 6 more mph out of my arm.

This is why I’m not against mature pitchers using them … but they’re also not a magic bullet. If you do ALL the other things I did – throwing daily, developing fitness. working on mechanics – weighted baseballs may work for you, too.

Do nothing but weighted baseballs, though, and you’ll probably be disappointed.[/quote]

Thanks for your input Mr. Ellis.

Your last sentence is definately worth noting, I agree completely.


#9

Actually I think Linecum has done a specially designed weighted ball program that his father developed as part of his training program.


#10

Who is to say that there is a “right” way and a “wrong” way to add velocity. The only truly wrong way to add velocity is through performance enhancing drugs. And aren’t you the same guy that argued with me that lifting weights can’t help you to throw harder. While I agree with that statement in some aspects, you come back and say that you throw harder because you have been doing tubing? Hate to break it to you, but weights and tubing accomplish the same thing. They are used as a prehab or sometimes also as a rehab. Used for that purpose, weights and tubing are very effective. Unless you were injured, crediting velo gains to tubing is somewhat doubtful.

I did my master’s research proposal on the topic of underload/overload training in regards to pitching. For part of the the proposal, I had to do a literature review. I had to go back and try to find to origins of this type of training. Hate to break it to you RIstar, but there is tons of research saying that it works. Not only has it worked with pitching, but it has worked with other athletic movements across many different sports. And as centerfield correctly pointed out, the control groups in these studies did not increase their performance at the same rate as the experimental group. In case you didn’t know, the two groups are usually contain the same number of participants, are the same age, have close to the same playing experience, etc. They do this for the purpose of being able to rule out growth and conditioning like you argue. I don’t think someone like Dr. James Andrews would put his name on several of these studies if he didn’t believe them or thought that they were flawed in any way, shape, or form.

The thing that I have enjoyed so far about this forum, is that many of the posters seem to have a good grasp on all of the different pitching philosophies that are floating around out there. I personally am a NPA guy, but I am willing to listen to the Mills and Nymans that are out there. However, there are those that are unwilling to look outside of their own little world. While Dr. Mike Marshall comes to mind immediately, there are also posters on here (the threadstarter for example) that chose one way and refuse to listen to anything else. That’s not what this forum is about. It is not about beating one way of pitching into everyone’s heads. It is about the spreading of pitching knowledge, the answering of difficult questions, the disecting of mechanics, and just being a fun place to learn something new about pitching everyday. I think that we all can improve on this in one way or another.


#11

Excellent point. :smiley: That is the strength of this site.


#12

This product is advertised as a magic bullet and it’s not. Throwing hard isn’t about the arm. It’s about the body. Take Joel Zumay {wrong spelling I know} Look at his mechaincs. Then look at foot plant watch the Hip/Shoulder seperation in the torso. It’s the stretch of the muscles that gives you velocity not the arm. You can keep your arm in shape to throw with other things like tubing. And work on throwing skills on a mound that are very important like hitting the glove.

Isn’t it the body that throws the ball? Not the arm work on a full body training that would work. You could train the body to throw the ball not the arm.

Look at tim lincecum look at all the hip/shoulder seperation with a long stride. it’s the body that throws the ball and the arm is on for the ride.

All im trying to say is you can keep your arm in shape with other things such as tubing and that with the tubing you could work on pitching off a mound and using the whole body to throw.

Yes you can still use the weightted balls and still use the whole body BUT it’s targetting the arm not the full body needed when you throw.

I also think the 5-6mph gain from Steve Eliis was probably his strong core and all the other work he did day in and day out and not so much the weighted balls.


#13

[quote=“RIstar”]Yes you can still use the weightted balls and still use the whole body BUT it’s targetting the arm not the full body needed when you throw.

I also think the 5-6mph gain from Steve Eliis was probably his strong core and all the other work he did day in and day out and not so much the weighted balls.[/quote]

I can’t speak for Steve and I won’t even try to. But I don’t think that he would credit the throwing program for his jump in velo if he didn’t believe that that was truly the reason. While his conditioning program certainly helped, it can not be the entire reason for a sudden jump in velo after he did the throwing program.

The bottom line is this…I don’t think that you understand what the purpose of “weighted” balls" are. Now some people advertise weighted baseballs that can go up and over 10 oz. in weight. I must admit, I don’t know much about the effects of throwing with those weighted baseballs What the studies are showing is the effects of throwing with an overload (6oz.) and an underload (4 oz.) baseball. While the overload ball is thrown to help increase strength, it is also thrown to help stretch the “elastics” in your shoulder. The underload ball is thrown to basically teach your arm to move “faster.” If you don’t want to throw the overload ball, there have been studies done on just throwing a regulation ball and the underload ball. Pitchers in the experimental group gained on average 3 mph on their average fastball speed. They did this by just teaching their arm to move faster. So this throwing program is not just targeting arm strength. It is a component of it, but not the total package.

I agree with you in the fact that the whole body throws the ball. I’m sure you’ve heard it before, but the NPA did a case study that showed that 80% of velo comes from hip/shoulder separation. That leaves the other 20% for directional momentum down the mound, arm strength, etc. That is why you don’t see 40 mph gains from throwing weighted balls. The results from this study show relatively small gains (in relation to overall velocity) in velo. But when it comes to baseball, any gain in velocity is huge be it 3 mph or 10 mph. Nobody is saying that if you use these balls, you will throw 100 mph instantly. It is not a magic bullet. It is a throwing program that takes at least 10 weeks, and even then you may only gain a couple mph’s. But given how players are striving to maximize the most out of their God-given genetics, any gain is exactly that, a gain. There is a new post everyday about “How can I throw harder?” This throwing program is one way to enable pitchers to throw harder.


#14

Strech the elatics what do you mean by that?

If you mean what I think you mean then you are saying that there is a strech that you can get from this. Saying that you can get a strech in the shoulder from tubing before and after game.

The reason I think weighted balls are waste

They take throwing away from pitching off a mound at full velocity
You can gain the same things with tubing SUCH AS
Increase velocity and conditioning

I know people don’t think that Tubing increase velocity but I have noticed it has keep me strong later into season and I did increase in velocity too about 5-6 mph.

A study I have found on tubing
NATA: Tube testing
By Anthony R. Edwards

In-season strengthening with surgical tubing can increase pitching velocity in high school baseball players, according to research from Oregon State University presented at the NATA meeting in Los Angeles in June.

Neeraj Beheti, PT, a graduate student, and Rod Harter, PhD, ATC, an associate professor of exercise and sport science at Oregon State University in Corvallis, studied 24 high school baseball pitchers aged 15 to 19. Before testing began, the pitchers’ velocity was measured by a JUGS radar gun and internal and external rotation peak torque was measured by a KinCam 500-H dyananometer.

The pitchers were divided into test and control groups. Athletes in the test group did six separate exercises (seated rowing, forward punches, shoulder shrugs, standing internal rotation, standing external rotation, and a standing exercise for the supraspinatus) with progressively resistive surgical tubing over the six-week test period. The control group continued with regular baseball exercises. All athletes were instructed not to participate in any other weight or resistive exercise training, nor did the pitchers do any of these exercises on game days. The players were allowed on-field baseball training, such as batting practice and fielding, however.

No injuries, soreness, or fatigue were reported in either group.

After the six weeks of exercise, the treatment group’s maximum velocity increased by 6.2 mph, compared to a 1.5 mph increase in the control group. The researchers found no significant differences in isokinetic peak torque between the test and control groups.