2 seam and pitching coaches

Last winter we worked on getting the 2 seam to actually 2-seam. I watched lot of slow speed film. Tried to do what we thought the good 2 seamers were doing. my son throws the 4 seam from a really straight up about as high as you can get arm slot and comes off right off the bottom of the ball ( no movement on it but excellent control in spotting the ball). So with the film I have watched and talking to his regular coach who pitched college ball we dropped his arm slot a little, on the 2 seam and have him thowing more across the ball and rotating his thumb down, not snapping it off but sort of just the natural way your hand moves through the ball when released from a lower arm slot, its still a fairly verticle arm slot but it is lower. At the beginning of the season after about 5 months of work. he actually had a 2 seam that was running in 6 or so inches in on a righty at 56 ft, getting the ball off the barrel of the bat. at 13years old it was really affective at practice when he would throw it to his team mates the righties hated it. during all this he has never complained of anything being sore we throw often not always high numbers or hard but 30 to 45 throws every other day or so at least 3 times threw the week and always on sundays in the off season. He only throws 59 mph at 60 ft. So i take him to a well talked about pitching coach, played in the pros (who he beat twice this year, actually asked to pitch against him both times, he likes competition) to maybe add 2 or 3 mph. we threw about 15 pitches and for the next 15 minutes all I heard about was what he does wrong. The biggest question I have is this the pitching coach said that you can get the 2 seam to move with the same release same arm slot as his 4 seam and that just the grip change will make it move. That he should not be manipulating the ball in anyway on any pitch to get movement. So we quit throwing the 2 seam like we had been. Seriuosly I do not want to hurt my kid. So we have spent the last 5 months working on what that pitching coach said and nothing no movement. Feel like we wasted 10 months. When i watch film of righties in the pros with good 2 seams it looks like their thumb is rotating down and manipulating the ball, it definatly released different then their 4 seam. same way with the cutter manipulation. I think this fall we are going back to throwing like we were last winter manipulating it. I guess I am looking for any thoughts or comments you guys have.

Oh, for cryin’ out loud!
You see what happens when you have too many cooks in the kitchen? One pitching coach tells the kid one thing, another one tells him something else, and the end result is confusion worse confounded. What the kid needs is a pitching coach who really knows what a two-seamer is—and what it is, is a sinker ball.
Ted Williams was talking to a young hitter one time, and he told him to watch Yankee pitcher Spud Chandler. He said Chandler threw a very heavy ball, and what he meant was a devastating sinker. “Watch how he throws it,” Williams said, “and take it from there.” The kid could do a lot worse than go back to the way he used to throw it, and if it works for him he should stay with it. 8)

[quote=“Zita Carno”]Oh, for cryin’ out loud!
You see what happens when you have too many cooks in the kitchen? One pitching coach tells the kid one thing, another one tells him something else, and the end result is confusion worse confounded. What the kid needs is a pitching coach who really knows what a two-seamer is—and what it is, is a sinker ball.
Ted Williams was talking to a young hitter one time, and he told him to watch Yankee pitcher Spud Chandler. He said Chandler threw a very heavy ball, and what he meant was a devastating sinker. “Watch how he throws it,” Williams said, “and take it from there.” The kid could do a lot worse than go back to the way he used to throw it, and if it works for him he should stay with it. 8)[/quote]

thanks for the reply. so you pretty much think he should go back to the way we were throwing it? even though he has some wrist and elbow movement?
In todays world if we jeopordiaze are kids we look like child beaters.My oldest son now 24 threw smoke 11 years ago watch him throw a no hitter with 18 strike outs. no one even close to hitting him one weekend the next weekend he through 16 strike outs in a no hitter. Nothing off speed. by his sophmore year he was throwing 87 off the bump. by his junior year he was done blew out the muscle in the rear of his shoulder that stops his arm he still throws hard but the pain is not worth itt.
I mention that to bring this up I think throwing exceptionally hard at a young age is worst then throwing a little bit of junkl Its funny you mentioned a heavy ball thats how some guys describe my kids pitching he throws strikes but rarely gets hit hard, he is actually very ugly to watch, unathletic, very slow paced. not alot of strike outs hardly any walks but rarely gets hit hard. he would have to add 16 mph in the next 15 or 16 months to get to the 75 mph mark. can he actually have a decent high school career as a freshman throwing in the low to mid 70;s

Let me start over again. I hadn’t even finished what I was going to say when my stupid computer jumped the track on me and sent me to something totally irrelevant. So here goes.
Yes, your kid could make a go of it pitching in the low 70s and beyond—if he completely revamps his way of pitching, meaning getting away from the over-the-top delivery altogether. You are so right; this is worse for a youngster than throwing “junk” as it’s often called, and I for one can’t understand why so many pitching coaches, who really ought to know better, subscribe to the straight overhand delivery as the be-all and the end-all when they know that this is one of the biggest causes of arm and shoulder injuries, being as unnatural as it is! And many major-league sinkerballers actually throw from a 3/4, or even closer to sidearm, delivery, and they experience no problems.
I was lucky. At age 11 I discovered that I had a true, natural sidearm delivery, with a nice little curveball that came attached to it—these things happen at times—and I worked around with that curveball, figured out how to change speeds, picked up a knuckle-curve and my first changeup—a very good palm ball. I got into playing at age 14, won quite a few games and rescued many others—and then, two years later. because of my overwhelming curiosity about something called a slider, I met Yankee pitcher Eddie Lopat, himself a consummate finesse pitcher with not much speed but a tremendous assortment of “junk” (good breaking and offspeed pitches). He showed me how to throw a good slider and became my de facto pitching coach, and in the almost four years that we worked together he helped me become a better pitcher than I had been. He saw where I was coming from and what I could do, and he showed me how to make the most of it.
And no sore arm or sore shoulder or sore anything else!
So I think the first step your kid should take is to switch over completely to a 3/4 delivery; then he should add a couple of good breaking pitches and, most importantly, a really good changeup. A pitching coach who favors a common-sensical approach (something like what Lopat did) can be of tremendous help in this endeavor. So go to it, and I wish you and him all the best. 8)

He is young I assume. Have him throw as hard as he can, don’t worry about anything else. 2 seam does not do anything when it is slow. I have seen some dirty two seams and they were pretty heavy and hard.

Don’t worry about 2 seams so young. Throw hard.

[quote=“SeanBaseball14”]He is young I assume. Have him throw as hard as he can, don’t worry about anything else. 2 seam does not do anything when it is slow. I have seen some dirty two seams and they were pretty heavy and hard.

Don’t worry about 2 seams so young. Throw hard.[/quote]

yeah hes young he is 13 . this fall he is pitching in a 14,15 ,16 league. he has only 4 innings in. and not been hit hard the last inning he pitched he was out in 12 pitches . 3 weak groundballs to the short stop, he is 5ft 2 122 lbs it easy to say throw hard but there is this thing called physics. there are kids in this league that throw up to 85mph . 6ft 2 185 lbs. sophmores and young juniors hes in 8th grade. they get hitand hit hard.he can not throw hard . i am 6 ft 240 he is behind in getting hair on his junk . inmature. he threw 54 mph at 10 but has not grown. I am not going to pressure him into throwing hard. i think it will come/ I used to be of that school but buwhte has convinced me it does not matter . control is it.
he was throwing a really good 2 seam with movement in feb but i let some pitching coach talk me out of it cause it was hard on his arm. funny thing is the team we are on now that we tried out for the same pitching coach that said he was all wrong picked him over kids throwing 74 or so . so i am thinking he must be doing something correct. i basically wanted to know what you guys were thinking about manipulating the ball for movement at 13yo but i quess it went over much of your heads.

[quote=“SeanBaseball14”]He is young I assume. Have him throw as hard as he can, don’t worry about anything else. 2 seam does not do anything when it is slow. I have seen some dirty two seams and they were pretty heavy and hard.

Don’t worry about 2 seams so young. Throw hard.[/quote]

I couldn’t agree with this more. Well said.

Memo to slow-but-accurate: Don’t lose any sleep over it. The kid is thirteen, right? He’s just entered puberty, and you can be sure that he’s going to hit at least one growth spurt in the next few years—maybe more. The thing he needs to do most is build up and maintain his arm strength and, in general, get into really good shape. And he needs a pitching coach who is consistent in his approach (hey, I made a poem!) and who will work with him to help him make the most of what he has and can do. He has the makings of a really good sinkerball pitcher—how about adding a really good changeup to the mix? :slight_smile:

You play with a two seam all you want, but honestly being young is the best time to learn to throw hard and work towards that goal. Nothing really matters at young ages. Teach the body to work towards that goal.

But if having the best two seam is important so be it.

[quote=“kyleb”][quote=“SeanBaseball14”]He is young I assume. Have him throw as hard as he can, don’t worry about anything else. 2 seam does not do anything when it is slow. I have seen some dirty two seams and they were pretty heavy and hard.

Don’t worry about 2 seams so young. Throw hard.[/quote]

I couldn’t agree with this more. Well said.[/quote]

Ditto! 2-seamer is a velocity pitch. Throw hard and worry about the movement later. At 13U, movement is more of a hindrance to getting strikes than a benefit. Catchers can’t catch it. Bounces off of the glove all of the time. Umpires don’t call it for a strike. Hitters are confused and don’t swing. Umpires don’t call it for a strike. Ball bounces off of the catcher’s mitt every pitch. In a recent inning, my son struck out five and gave up two runs. Yup. Third strikes off of the catcher’s mitt. A couple passed balls later, and the kid - who reached on the catcher’s error on the 3rd strike, scores. Of course, he scores off a passed ball. All because of a natural movement in the 2-seamer. And it gets even worse with the slider. Last game threw the 5 inning no-hitter and stayed away from the 2-seamer. Just chucked it down the middle and screamed for the opposing kids to hit it. The kids couldn’t get their -3 bats around quick enough as they’re moving up from the -10/-11.

I think you’re missing the point of the advice to “throw hard” The velocity numbers at his age don’t really matter. What does matter is that he needs to develop the intent to throw hard. As he reaches puberty and hits his growth spurts the numbers will go up. But, only if he has the intent to throw hard.

I agree with the previous posters. At 13 he needs to develop a fastball and change. Forget about trying to manipulate movement. Movement will come.