I posted a couple of post ago, somehow I did not either explain myself but it went off what the original post was posted for. I understand the concept of throwing hard we work on it through the week throwing hard and long toss. My kid is 13 should play in a 13yo league, 5ft 2.5 inches and 123 lbs. He throws 59 mph on the 1st pitch or 70th. Its actual mph from a gun not oh my kid throws mid seventies. Actually when he plays his age group he does quite well at 59 with the fastball on the age he is suppose to play. we are playing in a 14,15 16yr old league right now. Some of the 16yo are 80mph plus, 6ft 2 185lbs. AT 13 he is never going to have the speed to blow it by the older kids playing HS ball. The original question I had was about manipulation. I watch the pros they appear to be manipulating the fast ball, etc. the cutter and 2-seam. I was shocked when the pitching coach said you should not have to manipulate it to get it to move , that you can get it to move with just a grip change. That is what I was asking for comments on. I agree with you all i would like him to throw 70 mph like the kids that are bigger and stronger. When he was10 he was bigger then the rest and yeah he could blow it by most kids .He just has not grown but maybe 3 inches in 3 years. He throws hard from short or 3rd when he can get a crow hop in, Better then most of the older kids to be honest.I am fairly confident as he grow and muscles up into ayoung man he is going to gain veloctiy.
I wonder if that pitching coach knows what he’s talking about.
Major league pitchers do it all the time—“manipulate” the ball by altering the grip one way or another. For example, the palm ball (an excellent changeup, by the way). The usual way to grip the ball is with all four fingers on top and the thumb underneath, way back in the palm of the hand, hence the name. But you can alter the grip—hold the ball more loosely, or further forward in the hand. Isn’t that “manipulating” the ball? Or something more esoteric like the knuckleball. You can use a two- or three-finger grip, with the fingertips or the fingernails. Or even our old friend the circle change and its kid brother the C-change. Even using different grips for an otherwise familiar pitch, like the “slip” pitch I used to throw a lot: you use any of several different knuckleball grips and throw the hard slider. Now, if that isn’t manipulation, I don’t know what is! The one thing that remains constant: you have to throw all your pitches with the same arm motion and the same arm speed as for the fast ball!!!
I happen to agree with Zita. Maybe the PC doesn’t really know what he’s talking about or there is a mis-communication about the word manipulation.
If he’s altering grips to change the movement or action on his pitches, then he is IMO manipulating movement.
You should probably find a new PC. It isn’t always about how much knowledge a particular PC has or doesn’t have. A lot of times it’s about finding the right fit for your kid. Finding someone who he is comfortable with and communicates well with him.
The other thread that you mentioned in your OP did give you good advice. Please don’t discount it. At your son’s age he needs to develop the intent to throw hard. This goes to the overall development of a pitcher including more movement on the fastball.
They guys I know with good 2 seams get their movement because they throw pretty hard, they just change grips. No real manipulations. Some people just have better movement than others, it all kind of depends on what type of pitcher you are.
Agreed, some kids who are good pitchers throw a good 2 seam and some can’t. My son is 11 and has never been able to get it to move consistently, even on his better days.