14 Now And Need some Different Eyes


#1

We have been working since Dec after a 6 week lay off he has hit the weights and doing the ASMI pitching conditioning workout with great success. We just need some different eyes to see if we are missing anything. He’s now 14


#2

He has worked on the front foot flying open and staying closed…


#3

i think your mechanics is alright

but the thing i only concern is that your side stride, i think you can try this,

try to extend your leg and stride sideway , experience see what is the difference,

becuaese you are point and stride to the catcher not to the right side of the mound

this is what i found that
your upper body
and arm swing looks like him

http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/stretch_pitching_mechanics.htm

there are so many way for arm swing,
as long as your elbow is noit horiztonal or higher than shoulder then it is alright

the way you did is like left up the arm , what you need to concern is that whether your elbow is higher than your shoulder

from what i see , it is not !!! so it is good,

another point is that i can not see from behind so i do not know your timing is it perfect or not!

which means the ball will be behind your head with your front foot plant is stand still and right hand is vertical like the picture below

see that ? both picture contribute a vertical hand when it comes to perfect timing, this will influence your command.


Not like this

see that ? when his hand comes to vertical, it is slightly off the head,

another perfect example is Barry Zito, those pitchers do not has a perfect timing, they are not consistent!! Well, let’s look at tommy hanson in the future, i really hope he will have a consistent career,because his stuff is very good with nsaty cureball an slider and ffastball who can reach to low to mid 90s (93-95) !!

normally pitchers who has rushing problem because of this
when the back leg is half turn, the swing arm is not yet vertical

this will influence that your timing is not perfect , (most of them behind the ear or around the ear like Barry Zito or AJ burnett. )

Tim Lincecum is a rare case that his timing is perfect and he can has a long stride, why? because his whole body flexibilty !! is very very good!!!
another interesting thing is that if yor look at the very slow motion video from tim lincecum, you can actually see his front leg stand still then turn his upper body then throw the ball , it definitely require a lot of flexibility to do this , if you ask CC. Sabathia to do this , he will never success with that kind of mechanics , why ? because mechaics is depend on individual’s work outs and body ability. But what we look here? we are all base on individual who at least can do a proper mechanics to prevent injury.


what i mean by inverted L?

look at this perfect exmaple who also suffer an injury

see that ? david cone also has an inverted L problem who never pitch more than 4000 innings

and Josh Johnson, the guy with inverted L problem, the more obvious your inverted L is, the more serious your shoulder will suffer an injury
you can only form an inverted L when your shoulder and elbow is horizontal!!

i have never see a inverted L or V pitcher , do not suffer injury, Never!!!

Inverted V l: Peavy, joel Zumaya

Inverted L : Mark Prior, Aj burnett, Josh johnson, Pedro martinez, Edinson Volquez, Phil Hughes , Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright , (the high 90s guy, Stephen Straxxxxx) ETC

are these guys great pitchers? yes, their stuff are awesome,

but do they have a long and smooth pitching career like maddux or tom glavine , roger clemens, mike mussina , Andy petitte?
The answer is NO!!!

correct me if im wrong for any of these

regards


reference : mlb.com video and pictures from internet are only for pitching mechanics analysis , not for any other purpose.

www.chrisoleary.com


#4

So inverted W or L? Which is it hard to understand which you one you permote. I think the inverted W is what you call the inverted L. Maddux has is a high cocked arm at foot plant gets the arm up quick after hand break permotes leverage and control.


#5

The main problem I see is that you don’t have any separation between your hips and shoulders. You are rotating them both at the same time.

Do a search for Tim Lincecum. You’ll see photos where his hips are square to home plate, while his shoulders are facing third. He has a phenomenal 90-degree separation between his shoulders and hips.

Once you plant your front foot, you want to rotate your hips as fast as you can, but leave your arm and shoulder back. Let is ‘catch up’ to your hips after they are square to the plate.

It helps to imagine you are pitching with your hips, rather than with your arm.


#6

Is this enough seperation or do we need to be at 90 deg?


#7

The goal is 90 degrees of separation.

Also, it will be easier for other to give you the advice you seek if your son’s shirt was tucked in, there was more light, and you posted the video so that we can freeze frames. I also recommend the use of a high-speed camera, such as the still cameras Casio makes that can shoot video at 200-300 frames a second.

Makes it easier to see what is going on.

Hope this helps.


#8

We will work on the seperation…We will post another clip when I’m able to get a studio with good lighting and get the high speed cameras, or it might be better/cheeper to get the guys from Sports Science to video him with his shirt tucked in…LOL thanks for the tip it will help


#9

as long as when your front foot is stand still

and perfect timing (ball behind the head)
and the chest is face the right side of the mound

that is shouder and hips separation…

i personally thinks that, as long as your chest is face the right side of the mound while ball behind the head and front foot is planted !

you already have shouder and hips separation like the 2 frame GIF above which is showed

dun just say that must like Tim Lincecum,… that is totally rediculous,

look at Roger, Maddux ,MO, they all have hips and shoulder separation, but they definitely different from Tim Lincecum

yes, Tim has the best Hips and Shouder separation, but as long as you meet the standard of hips and shoulder separation, you are correct

(standard separation means
as long as your chest is face the right side of the mound while ball behind the head and front foot is planted )

it is like the general stride, but everyone can stride in their own ways as long as their back leg and body balance is lower and long leg kick that can form a proper stride


#10

re: "The goal is 90 degrees of separation. "

-------baloney. The goal is 40 - 60 degrees of hip/shoulder separation, and within that range there is considerable variation between elite pitchers.

My numbers come from House’s database that contains 3D motion analysis data for 500+ professional pitchers. ASMI has also confirmed House’s numbers with their own, independent 3D motion analysis studies.

Where does “90 degrees” come from?


#11

I’m with you Flippin I don’t think the spine will allow the body to do 90 deg. And the jury is still out in my book on the arm above the head at foot plant and with my guy it may be to late to change his arm action, he has an inturnal to exturnal rotation never (knock on wood)had elbow/shoulder issues. I’m also a huge fan of ASMI we do there Pitchers conditioning workout Great Stuff…


#12

[quote=“laflippin”]re: "The goal is 90 degrees of separation. "

-------baloney. The goal is 40 - 60 degrees of hip/shoulder separation, and within that range there is considerable variation between elite pitchers.

My numbers come from House’s database that contains 3D motion analysis data for 500+ professional pitchers. ASMI has also confirmed House’s numbers with their own, independent 3D motion analysis studies.

Where does “90 degrees” come from?[/quote]

The attempt at illegitimate perfection is where it comes from.


#13

There may also be an oblique commercial motive for “Pitchmaster” to busily post lots of stuff on websites like this one, whether it’s well thought out opinion or not.

The more posts he makes, the more times everyone gets to read his business name, address, telephone, business website link, etc, at the bottom of his every post.


#14

Got to love that…I did check out the Site He attaches to his post GOLF anyone…

laflippin
does anything stand out that he needs to sharpen up befor spring ball? Someone said that if I had better lighting high speed cameras and his shirt tucked in everyone would have a better view to eval him so do your best. Thanks your in puts they are always valued.


#15

[quote=“laflippin”]re: "The goal is 90 degrees of separation. "

-------baloney. The goal is 40 - 60 degrees of hip/shoulder separation, and within that range there is considerable variation between elite pitchers.

My numbers come from House’s database that contains 3D motion analysis data for 500+ professional pitchers. ASMI has also confirmed House’s numbers with their own, independent 3D motion analysis studies.

Where does “90 degrees” come from?[/quote]

la you beat me to it- been away too long.

I believe House identifies Sabathia and Clemens are near top of the chart at 60 degrees. My 13yo son can get to 90 on the floor in his stretching routine but no way does that convert to the pitching motion.


#16

My boring answer is: I like his mechanics very well from looking at the two videos that you posted in this thread.

What every pitcher needs from his mechanics is: A consistently repeatable release point at the climax of a delivery that is balanced and efficient.

I don’t see anything in your young man’s delivery that bothers me, or I would have chipped in before.

What pitches does he have in his repertoire? Since micro-mechanics must necessarily change at the level of forearm/wrist/hand between the three major pitch types (FB, breaking balls, changeups), that is where lots of kids your boy’s age start to have some “control trouble”.

Perhaps >90% of good HS-aged pitchers can satisfactorily control the FB, at whatever velocity they happen to have…which is primarily why they are considered good for their age group. The struggle at your son’s age is very often, “how to start gaining an equivalent level of command over at least one other non-FB pitch, if not two others.” At the HS level, good hitters can hit a good FB, especially if that’s all the pitcher has under his command.

I don’t think there are too many good abstract drills for learning beaking balls and effective changeups because mechanics drills generally focus only on gross mechanics. Everything: timing, sequencing, and mechanics, is supposed to look identical for all three pitch types…right up to the elbow. But, from the elbow to the fingertips those three pitch types are undeniably different, and each new pitch type that the pitcher wants to gain command over needs to be repeated many, many times under as realistic conditions as possible.

I’m obviously sort of wandering from the original point here…just trying to anticipate where this conversation might go after, “I think his mechs look good, keep up the good work”… :lol:


#17

He has a FB gunned him last Sept at 77 good control. His CB is a late breaker mid 60’s and CU really works well throws it like Pedro. He has now really working on his 2 seam that when it works really sinks. What he runs into is sometimes he starts is hips a little early and his arm has to race up and his elbow doesnt get up so that is kind of our little project. Thanks for the tips.


#18

If you don’t mind me chipping in I’d like to add something, especially since you mentioned a timing problem.

First of all he’s doing a lot of things very well, especially initiating forward movement before the top of leg lift and has a good long stride.

I would consider moving him to the first base side of the rubber. If you notice where his drag line comes off the ground it is well toward the third base side. Ideally for greatest efficiency his foot should come off the ground on the line from the center of the rubber to the center of home plate. As it is now he is “throwing across his body” which typically requires a late posture change in order to get the ball back on target. I actually think I see him begin to adjust his posture at the top of leg lift when he kind of flexes his lower back.

IMO this posture change manifests itself in the lateral tilt of his spine and the tucking of his glove off to the side at release- necessary moves to get back on target. If the glove tucking gets severe, or happens too early, this can lead to premature opening of the shoulders and the “low throwing elbow” you mention.

Once you find the proper position on the rubber focus on establishing and maintaining a good “opposite and equal” position into foot strike, delivering with a more upright spine and a glove that stabilizes in front of the chest and over the front foot at release. In doing this his timing should improve and his elbow will come back to a more natural position- all without doing anything consciously to his throwing arm.


#19

is it just me or do we have Chris O’leary posting under a differnet user name here?


#20

[quote=“Highschoolpitcher9”]is it just me or do we have Chris O’leary posting under a differnet user name here?[/quote]haha I was thinking the same thing.

la
Good job!!