12U pitcher with shoulder pain

Paul, thanks for your response on the scap loading. I din’t see much either. Also, I understand your point about the scapula protecting the shoulder joint. In the stability/mobility chain, the scap is considered a stable joint and stable joints do just that - they help protect the adjacent mobile joints. But I think there are very few folks who understand this.

I’ve taken the two files, reduce them down to what I consider the most important part of the delivery.

As I said in a previous post YouTube video is horrible. If anyone wants serious analysis they should capture the video at 60 frames per second (if the camera allows this) and upload the file to an online file hosting service (as opposed to a video hosting service). You do not want the file converted to a YouTube format I want the raw video file (AVI or whatever format that allows the raw video file to be viewed).

I say this because from my perspective the YouTube videos of this player almost useless, you cannot accurately synchronize the two deliveries because the frames do not match up one-to-one in terms of time sequence due to the 25 frame and possibly drop frame in the YouTube conversion process.

That being said here is a side-by-side synchronize to what I consider ball release, i.e., pitching arm elbow extended.

I have a theory as to what might be happening with this player but due to the poor quality of the video I’ll let others give their opinions before I give mine.

Again for those who are serious about correcting throwing flaws you need better video than what’s available on

Coach - I apologize about video quality. I am new to all of this but will see what I can do when I get home tonight regarding video quality. I want to get a video camera that does a better job of slow motion video analysis but it does not work financially right now.

Please, no apology needed. I was simply trying to Make a general statement and explain that it’s difficult to make assessments without higher-speed video. Hopefully this will help others trying to use video/do video analysis.

Also to illustrate the danger/pitfalls of trying to extrapolate too much from too little.

Please do not take my commentary as criticism.

To me it looks like in the right side clip he may be hype-abducting the shoulder.

The 2 things that I see are his elbow is getting above his shoulder which can cause shoulder impingement. Also, I think he is opening his front side by pulling his glove. This causes his arm to drag and I would think that would cause anterior arm pain.

[quote]Those who think that the inverted W put stress on the shoulder/arm really don’t understand the limitations of the shoulder joint and how much the scapula complex protects the shoulder joint. The shoulder joints can only support a maximum of 90° horizontal abduction at approximately hundred degrees of external rotation (normal individuals).

In other words it’s virtually impossible to consciously lift the upper above the shoulder joint or externally rotate more than about 100-110°.

One of the tests for this is to place the non-throwing hand on top of your throwing shoulder to hold the scapula (Hand placed on top and fingers over back of the shoulder) and down hard enough so that the scapula cannot move upwards. And then hold your throwing arm straight out to your side and try to raise it up above your scapula (top of your shoulder).

If you’re not cheating i.e. allowing the scapula/official the complex to elevate you cannot raise your arm typically more than 90° i.e. arm sticking straight out sideways.

In order to elevate the upper arm above the horizontal (90°) the shoulder complex (scapula and associated parts) must elevate.
[/quote]

I disagree with the methodology of testing this anatomical fact, but the meat of the argument is true.

You have explained it in a clear and concise manner, yet few people are going to understand it. And this is the problem that I am having (and I’m sure you had for 10+ years) with regards to explaining things to people. You can only “dumb it down” so much.

People want to hear hard predictions and statements. If there’s anything I’ve learned by researching and experimenting in this field, it’s that reality is rarely that simple.

Roger,

Since your brought this up I think a lot of people would benefit from you explaining the mobility/stability chain starting with the ankle and going up and how the body is connected. Good point

[quote=“kyleb”][quote]Those who think that the inverted W put stress on the shoulder/arm really don’t understand the limitations of the shoulder joint and how much the scapula complex protects the shoulder joint. The shoulder joints can only support a maximum of 90° horizontal abduction at approximately hundred degrees of external rotation (normal individuals).

In other words it’s virtually impossible to consciously lift the upper above the shoulder joint or externally rotate more than about 100-110°.

One of the tests for this is to place the non-throwing hand on top of your throwing shoulder to hold the scapula (Hand placed on top and fingers over back of the shoulder) and down hard enough so that the scapula cannot move upwards. And then hold your throwing arm straight out to your side and try to raise it up above your scapula (top of your shoulder).

If you’re not cheating i.e. allowing the scapula/official the complex to elevate you cannot raise your arm typically more than 90° i.e. arm sticking straight out sideways.

In order to elevate the upper arm above the horizontal (90°) the shoulder complex (scapula and associated parts) must elevate.
[/quote]

I disagree with the methodology of testing this anatomical fact, but the meat of the argument is true.

You have explained it in a clear and concise manner, yet few people are going to understand it. And this is the problem that I am having (and I’m sure you had for 10+ years) with regards to explaining things to people. You can only “dumb it down” so much.

People want to hear hard predictions and statements. If there’s anything I’ve learned by researching and experimenting in this field, it’s that reality is rarely that simple.[/quote]

Kyleb,

Your absolutely correct. I think the guys that can do it the best choose to use video whenever possible to help shorten the learning curve. Human movement is so difficult to describe without being technical. It is often lost in translation when “dumbing” it down.

The stability/mobility chain is a model of the human body that focuses on the joints and their purpose. Going from toes to fingertips, the joints in the body alternate between stable and mobile joints. That is, stable joints provide stability and mobile joints provide mobility (duh). In doing so, joints help protect adjacent joints. Here’s the chain:

ankle - mobile
knee - stable
hip - mobile
lower spine - stable (forward/backward flexion/extension
upper spine - mobile (includes rotation)
scapula - stable
shoulder - mobile
elbow - stable
wrist - mobile

One thing you’ll notice is that the stable joints are “hinge” joints that move in one direction. They provide a more stable base for the mobile joints to move against. Training stable joints to be mobile will lead to injury. (Word on the street is that when Randy Johnson went to the Yankees and had back problems, they were having him train the low back as a mobile joint.) Now, training mobile joints to be stable may sound like it wouldn’t be a problem but it can cause stable joints to try to pick up the slack in the mobility department which can then lead to injury. Cascade injuries in which babying an injured joint results in an injury to an adjacent joint is a result of this type of scenario.

Had my son see a local PT (with baseball background) yesterday and he found scapular instability in throwing shoulder…which is more than likely a result of poor mechanics. PT did some soft tissue work and then had my son perform several exercises aimed at improving stability. There was a noticeable difference in just an hour. We will visit with PT again next week…after working on scapular stability at home…to get him cleared to throw. Then it is time to fix mechanics that led to this problem in the first place.

Good stuff glad to see PT is helping with the pain aspect of the problem.

That is good.

Update:

My son finished a week of rehab which included a session of Muscle Activation Technique. His combined strength testing during most recent PT visit improved 100%. Scap is moving much better with less instability.
He is now on a throwing program.

Last night we met with a coach who had previously worked with Dr. Marshall but went in another direction because he felt like there were flaws in Marshall’s teachings. He teaches, what he refers to as rotational pitching mechanics. My son warmed up and tried throwing but felt pain, on the front side of shoulder this time, after about 10 pitches. Scale of 1-10, he gave it a 6. The coach immediately started making changes to my son’s mechanics and the results were pretty impressive. By the time we finished, my son was throwing a 12oz baseball into a rubber mat with absolutely no pain.

Does anyone have experience with rotational pitching mechanics? Thoughts? I know there are different opinions on pitching mechanics and I don’t expect everyone to agree with our decision to try this but welcome feedback.

Do a search on this site for some more info on rotational pitching mechanics you should get some good dialogue to read.

Glad to hear everything is going well for your son.

Well I did write a book about it… 8)

coachxj
I’m guessing that he’s referring to the specific site and approach called “Rotational Pitching Mechanics”, or RPM, (
http://www.rpmpitching.com/t-welcome.aspx
), which is distinctly different than your RTFN. coachld, am I right there about the RPM site?

RTFN and RPM don’t resemble each other at all. RPM takes some of Marshall’s techniques but focuses on body rotation a lot more. The arm action is similar in that it’s intent is to happen on as straight a three dimensional line as possible, to its own detriment, in my humble opinion. Anatomically, very easy on the shoulder? Yes. Functionally? It would definitely do better than Marshall’s re: velocity but I can’t say it could reach very high levels, like the RTFN document outlines (although I haven’t seen that one, only seen comments from those who have). I found RPM to be very intriguing but its effectiveness is still in to be shown.

I referred the poster to Bill Peterson of RPM Pitching. I think Bill is far and away more qualified than anyone else in his area to coach him. I’ve talked to Bill regularly, and he credits Paul for quite a bit of the work he’s done.

I would say that dm59’s knowledge of Bill’s teaching is a bit out of date, but that’s a debate for another topic. Maybe when Bill’s book comes out :wink:

[quote=“kyleb”]I would say that dm59’s knowledge of Bill’s teaching is a bit out of date, but that’s a debate for another topic.[/quote]His forum stopped activity in 2009, to the best I can see. Has he advanced it at all? So, what in my description is different now?

Paul,

When can we buy a copy?

:biga:

Thanks,

Ed