1 team...12 pitchers! Say what?

“So in the end, I don’t think nature is nearly as important as nurture, but it has to be present to some degree.”

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  1. Athletic.
  2. 6’-4" 225 lbs"

Don’t disagree nurturing is important; also difficult to disagree having the physical tools goes a long way. The physical build is not something that can be coached or taught, something we all hope for and bestowed upon us by genetics.

Damn, after all that we do agree.

I feel like genetics make it easier to become successful, but, I also agree that without the nurture genetics don’t really mean a whole lot.

[quote=“Turn 22”]Damn, after all that we do agree.

I feel like genetics make it easier to become successful, but, I also agree that without the nurture genetics don’t really mean a whole lot.[/quote]

Turn, Think you have me confused with someone else. Agree completely with your statement.

Mike sorry, that post was meant for scorekeeper.

No problem, think you made a great point & ties back to original post and importance of kids playing multiple positions growing up. Having a certain physique will not guarantee a great pitcher, but all things being equal will give an advantage. My son is a good example; he’ll probably end up at 6’ to 6’1 and possibly slightly under with a slender build. Think it will be fine through high school and probably college and tougher after (if he makes it that far). As much as he loves the game just want him to have other options if pitching doesn’t work out.

Baseball’s really a game where players don’t need a certain stature/physique to be successful, but there’s much more to it than what’s possible and what isn’t. Sadly, we live in a world where not everyone is enlightened and without prejudice, and therein lies the problem. There are many who believe in their hearts that having a certain stature/physique is such an advantage that it warrants holding those that don’t back, in order to give those that do more opportunities to prove themselves.

So, what happens is, it’s a player’s “luck” as to what and how the system he lands in hands out “rewards’.

Baseball’s really a game where players don’t need a certain stature/physique to be successful

Agree but making point with all thing being equal the guy with an “ideal build” will have an advantage.

Why? Is there some “SKILL” in baseball that’s been proven to be more easily attained by someone with a certain physique, regardless of all other factors?

Why?

Because Baseball is slow to change and still goes by the age old “eye” test.

It’s unfortunate but it happens all the time and is going on as we speak, kids are getting told their height and or weight is what’s limiting them all the time.

Why? Is there some “SKILL” in baseball that’s been proven to be more easily attained by someone with a certain physique, regardless of all other factors?[/quote]

A guy I know well had a great High School & College career. Was drafted and spent several years in minors. He is 5’10 with slender build and the heart of a lion. Told me on occasion would still be pitching today if he were a few inches taller. I might give too much weight to his experience/opinion.

[quote=“Wales Diesel”]Why?

Because Baseball is slow to change and still goes by the age old “eye” test.

It’s unfortunate but it happens all the time and is going on as we speak, kids are getting told their height and or weight is what’s limiting them all the time.[/quote]

It sounds as though even though you note its unfortunate, I’m assuming because you know its just flat out wrong, you encourage and what to continue practice of spreading the gospel that size is the most important feature of a ball player.

I’m sorry, but to me all that does is give the morons who don’t want to change, an excuse for not giving equal opportunity to all kids, rather than only just a very small percentage of them.

[quote=“scorekeeper”][quote=“Wales Diesel”]Why?

Because Baseball is slow to change and still goes by the age old “eye” test.

It’s unfortunate but it happens all the time and is going on as we speak, kids are getting told their height and or weight is what’s limiting them all the time.[/quote]

It sounds as though even though you note its unfortunate, I’m assuming because you know its just flat out wrong, you encourage and what to continue practice of spreading the gospel that size is the most important feature of a ball player.

I’m sorry, but to me all that does is give the morons who don’t want to change, an excuse for not giving equal opportunity to all kids, rather than only just a very small percentage of them.[/quote]

Scorekeeper,
This may not have been a reply to me but I hope I’m not one of the “morons” you’re addressing. My point is not to discriminate; if so would be discriminating against my own son because he’s not going to have the prototype pitching build. Only point is I do believe having the build is a helpful tool, also believe those lacking stature can be much better than those who do. My original point is I don’t want my son to be a pitcher only at his age and certainly didn’t at age 10. I hope my son continues to develop as a pitcher and go as far as he can. If the time comes later on that he doesn’t benefit the team pitching want him to have other skills to get him on the field.

[quote=“Mike4”]Scorekeeper,
This may not have been a reply to me but I hope I’m not one of the “morons” you’re addressing. [/quote]

No, it wasn’t directed at you or anyone else in particular, unless you happen to be someone who’d give a player more opportunities just because he was bigger or had some other characteristic that had no proven relation to baseball skill or success.

What is the “prototype pitching build”, and why is it supposed to be so much “better” than any other build?

Please explain why.

If that’s what you really believe in you heart, then there is no good reason for a player with a “prototype pitching build” to be given any advantage what-so-ever.

Heck, it kicked me when the HS coach made my kid a PO at 15. He was a much above average fielder and hitter, but the problem was, he became too valuable a commodity on his HS team as a pitcher to risk having him hurt himself doing something else, so I had no choice in the matter. As it turns out, the worst decision I ever made was to allow him to pitch in the 1st place. I thought he was so good, there was no way he’d be prejudiced against. I was very wrong about that, and anyone who kids themselves that that prejudice isn’t still around is only kidding himself.

Trouble is, when that time comes, it may well be too late because once he becomes a PO, the other skills erode very quickly. They’re still there, but they aren’t “game” ready.

[quote="scorekeeper"
What is the “prototype pitching build”, and why is it supposed to be so much “better” than any other build? .[/quote]

Turn22 described 6’4 225, sounds pretty good. Not saying got to have to be successful but sure helps. To deny is the same as saying a 6’7 335 lb guy has no advantage over a 5’10 250 lb guy with both battling over the offensive left tackle spot on a football team. As far as becoming a PO; we’re talking about youth pitchers. Specifically a 10 year old and whether they should play other positions. Will be a few years off before we’ll be dealing with that issue (I would hope).

[quote=“scorekeeper”]It sounds as though even though you note its unfortunate, I’m assuming because you know its just flat out wrong, you encourage and what to continue practice of spreading the gospel that size is the most important feature of a ball player.

I’m sorry, but to me all that does is give the morons who don’t want to change, an excuse for not giving equal opportunity to all kids, rather than only just a very small percentage of them.[/quote]

So just because I say that you assume that?

Take a step back.

I could care less if a kid is 4 feet or 7 feet all that matters is if he can play, execute and perform.

But I’m not a Coach, Scout or Recruiter so what I think doesn’t matter, I’m not a decision maker.

But pitching isn’t at all the same thing as being an offensive lineman. To do that job, pure mass is a help because even with no skills at all, all he has to do is stand in front of someone trying to get into the backfield. But not so with pitchers. He can’t just stand there on the mound. Eventually he has to throw the ball and that requires some degree of skill.

I could swear you said your kid was older than 10, so I wasn’t aware anyone had set parameters for who we were talking about. But in general, I’d like to see all players get to play as many positions as possible until they were at least on the HS V. So who or what stops that from happening? The way it shakes out to me, its as soon as the manager believes winning a game is more important than developing players to give them the best opportunity to advance if they so choose.

But pitching isn’t at all the same thing as being an offensive lineman. To do that job, pure mass is a help because even with no skills at all, all he has to do is stand in front of someone trying to get into the backfield. But not so with pitchers. He can’t just stand there on the mound. Eventually he has to throw the ball and that requires some degree of skill.

I could swear you said your kid was older than 10, so I wasn’t aware anyone had set parameters for who we were talking about. But in general, I’d like to see all players get to play as many positions as possible until they were at least on the HS V. So who or what stops that from happening? The way it shakes out to me, its as soon as the manager believes winning a game is more important than developing players to give them the best opportunity to advance if they so choose.[/quote]

Ok, I think we agree. My only point is the size is helpful. My son is 13, original post was about a 10 year old. Section does pertain to youth pitching, don’t think (just my opinion) any youth pitcher should be a PO. Would hope subject will not be an issue prior to high school.

I believe that was West2East that mentioned 6’4" 225 lbs.
Not that it matters.

As far as pro scouts go, they look for certain body size and types. A lot of kids may not get close looks because the physical make up isn’t there.
Is it right? NO. Smaller guys can and have been more succesful than the perfect bodytype, whatever that may be.

We can ask “Why?” all day long, but the consensus seems to be that bigger guys are more scouted than smaller ones. Until baseball changes its perception of “prototypical pitchers” its going to be the norm.

That’s not to say smaller guys won’t get opportunities, but, I think they are going to have to work harder to get noticed.

That being said, shouldn’t genetics include attributes other than height and weight. What about arm structure, or overall muscle structure?

Well said turn

[quote=“Turn 22”]As far as pro scouts go, they look for certain body size and types. A lot of kids may not get close looks because the physical make up isn’t there.
Is it right? NO. Smaller guys can and have been more succesful than the perfect bodytype, whatever that may be. [/quote]

What you’re saying in so many words is, there’s something radically wrong with the “system” since it wastes so many opportunities to get players who can do the job. I’ll buy that.

Like all things, baseball takes a loooooong time to change its ways. But, it does happen, and every year there are more people who realize the waste makes no sense at all.

That’s the way its always been, and IMHO it’s a pretty stupid way to run a railroad.

You seem bound and determined to push skill as far out of the picture as possible. You certainly aren’t alone in that, but its why the consensus is what it is.