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| Do you think weighted balls are beneficial? |
| Yes |
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65% |
[ 51 ] |
| No |
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34% |
[ 27 ] |
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| Total Votes : 78 |
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Wooddell89
Varsity
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 79
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 Posted: Dec 12, 2006 Post subject: Weighted Balls (Everyone Please Express Your Opinions) |
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| What do you guys think about weighted balls? I'm thinking about maybe getting some and long tossing with them. Also where do you get them? Does anyone just use a water-logged baseball? Thanks For Your Time.... |
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lbarber4
All Star
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 707
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Dec 12, 2006 Post subject: |
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They have the potential to be beneficial for a pitcher if used correctly.
_________________
Frank, http://www.myspace.com/yankeesfanforlife
“Hitting is timing. Pitching is upsetting timing.”
Warren Spahn |
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Roger
Administrator
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 4859
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Dec 12, 2006 Post subject: |
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I have no personal experience with them However, there are lots of people who claim they work. Some weighted baseball sets come with 4oz, 5oz and 6oz balls while other sets come with balls that differ from the normal 5oz ball by more than 1oz. It was my impression that you should only use the 4oz, 5oz, and 6oz balls and you should follow a well-established overload/underload program.
I've also heard it said that the weighted balls work only as long as you continue using them implying that their benefit goes away if you stop using them. |
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Chris O'Leary
Legend
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 2198
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Dec 12, 2006 Post subject: Re: Weighted Balls (Everyone Please Express Your Opinions) |
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| Wooddell89 wrote: |
| What do you guys think about weighted balls? I'm thinking about maybe getting some and long tossing with them. Also where do you get them? Does anyone just use a water-logged baseball? Thanks For Your Time.... |
I'm skeptical, since most of a pitcher's velocity is generated in the torso, not the arm or shoulder.
I think that some of the gains that have been seen have come from all the added practice, not the over/under-weight balls.
I'd like to see details on the studies to see how they were constructed and to make sure that confounding wasn't a problem.
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http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/index.html |
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dm59
Administrator
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 1933
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| Posted: Dec 12, 2006 Post subject: Re: Weighted Balls (Everyone Please Express Your Opinions) |
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| Chris O'Leary wrote: |
| I'd like to see details on the studies to see how they were constructed and to make sure that confounding wasn't a problem. |
Dr. Brent Rushall is strong in his contention that ALL of the "studies" that propose velocity benefits of under/overload training are in fact "confounded" regarding scientific method. It's all in his new book co-authored with Mills. I'm not qualified to evaluate the validity of his evaluations but his arguments are compelling. |
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Chris O'Leary
Legend
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 2198
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| Posted: Dec 12, 2006 Post subject: Re: Weighted Balls (Everyone Please Express Your Opinions) |
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| dm59 wrote: |
| Chris O'Leary wrote: |
| I'd like to see details on the studies to see how they were constructed and to make sure that confounding wasn't a problem. |
Dr. Brent Rushall is strong in his contention that ALL of the "studies" that propose velocity benefits of under/overload training are in fact "confounded" regarding scientific method. It's all in his new book co-authored with Mills. I'm not qualified to evaluate the validity of his evaluations but his arguments are compelling. |
Glad to see that I'm not alone on this.
The problem is that I have never been able to see the original studies, and see how they were designed (e.g. what the control groups did). Instead, I've only seen the results.
In general, when a guy won't show you the design of the study, and only shows the results, you should take the results with a grain of salt.
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http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/index.html |
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CADad
Superstar
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 1074
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Dec 12, 2006 Post subject: |
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Rafael F. Escamilla1, Ph.D., Glenn S. Fleisig2, Ph.D.,
Steven W. Barrentine2, M.S., James R. Andrews2, M.D., and Kevin P. Speer, M.D.
Pretty impressive group. They reviewed the studies and concluded that overload/underload training resulted in significant improvements. But I'm sure they're not as qualified as Chris.
"Data from these training studies strongly support the practice of training with overweight and underweight baseballs to increase throwing velocity of regulation baseballs."
Typically an average HS pitcher will gain about 1 mph at most in a 12 week period. Some more, some less but on average about 1 mph. These pitchers gained significantly more while performing overload/underload training over periods ranging from 6 to 12 weeks. The studies showed pitchers gaining an average of 3 to 5 mph with the younger pitchers (HS) gaining a bit more on average than the older ones. If there is some other type of training the control group could have been doing that would have made the type of gains the overload/underload training did I'd like to see it because as a group pitchers don't make those types of gains with any other training I've ever heard of. Anecdotally I've heard of gains from long toss, but to my knowledge no studies have been done to prove it. I do prefer long toss, but that is just a personal preference.
I'm sure that weighted ball training didn't help Steve Ellis either, he would have picked up that extra velocity by just sticking with his routine. Right. |
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LFRoberts5
Babe Ruth
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 15
Location: St. Louis
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| Posted: Dec 13, 2006 Post subject: |
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Using the overload principle while correctly executing proper pitching techniques (mechanics) will produce:
Better Accuracy
Stronger Pitching Muscles
Reduced Injury
Greater Endurance
Increased Velocity
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LFRoberts5 |
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palo20
All Star
Joined: 11 Sep 2006
Posts: 522
Location: MA
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| Posted: Dec 13, 2006 Post subject: |
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If I'm not mistaken the studies done by ASMI determined that the best results occur with balls that are within 20% range of a baseball. I believe they got similar results with over/under training with bats too. Anyway, they think that 4,5,6 oz balls are the best to use in over/under training. I believe the study found that the law of diminishing returns holds true after 6 oz. So it is not necessarily beneficial to throw a 2 lb. baseball.
I think that IF a pitcher were to do over/under training, that the safest way is with the 4,5,6 oz. balls. |
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dm59
Administrator
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 1933
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| Posted: Dec 13, 2006 Post subject: |
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| LFRoberts5 wrote: |
Using the overload principle while correctly executing proper pitching techniques (mechanics) will produce:
Better Accuracy
Stronger Pitching Muscles
Reduced Injury
Greater Endurance
Increased Velocity |
Wow! And what evidence do we have of all of these? How will throwing a non-regulation weight ball increase accuracy with a regulation weight ball? |
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dm59
Administrator
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 1933
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| Posted: Dec 13, 2006 Post subject: |
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| CADad wrote: |
Rafael F. Escamilla1, Ph.D., Glenn S. Fleisig2, Ph.D.,
Steven W. Barrentine2, M.S., James R. Andrews2, M.D., and Kevin P. Speer, M.D.
"Data from these training studies strongly support the practice of training with overweight and underweight baseballs to increase throwing velocity of regulation baseballs." |
Again, I'm not qualified to pass judgement on this but here are a few quotes from Dr. Brent Rushall about this. So, don't shoot the messenger.
| Rushall wrote: |
| The original Escamilla et al. study erred in the evaluation and inclusion of studies that were supposed to reflect on the effects of under- and overweight baseball pitching practices on pitching velocity with a regulation ball. Upon review, several studies were deemed unacceptable because they were irrelevant or deficient iin research rigor. As well, some studies were incorrectly reported. Knowledge of these deficiencies caused a reinterpretation and statement of conclusions that reversed theoriginal article's import. |
AND
| Rushall wrote: |
| There is a dearth of studies available for forming reliable generalizations on this topic. In reality, there is insufficient reliable research to allow any informed reconciliation of objective findings. No new acceptabel studies have emerged over the past decade. At present, theory will have to guide practice and that theory sides with the opinion that under- and overweight baeball practices do not improve pitching velocity with regulation baseballs. there is more evidence that shows overweight balls do not improve pitching velocity than do. The definitive statement in the original article: "studies strongly support the practice of training with overweight and underweight baseballs to increase throwing velocity of regulation baseballs" is untenable because of its lack of scientific support. |
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| Rushall wrote: |
| Escamilla, Speer, Fleisig, Barrentine, & Andrews, (2000) reviewed articles on throwing under- and overweight baseballs and their effects on throwing velocity and accuracy. Mention of pitching was interspersed throughout the paper leading the reader to assume the study was about pitching rather than a general skill of throwing a regulation baseball. It was concluded: "Data from these training studies strongly support the practice of training with overweight and underweight baseballs to increase throwing velocity of regulation baseballs (p. 259). At the completion of the article, arguments for why alternative objects should not be beneficial to regulation baseball pitching velocity and accuracy were stated. It was opined that more research on the effects of these practice baseballs was needed ... which contradicted the categorical conclusion of the review. |
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screwballer
Little League
Joined: 05 Oct 2006
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Dec 13, 2006 Post subject: |
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If pitching arm injuries are at an epidemic proportion with a 5 oz baseball I can't imagine what the results of throwing a weighted ball would be.
There are better ways to strength train the specific muscles for pitching. |
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