FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Profile Log in to check your private messages Register Log in

Ask Questions. Share Answers. Pitch Better.

Low pitching elbow?
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    LetsTalkPitching.com Forum Index -> General Pitching Advice
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Steven Ellis
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 08 Aug 2005
Posts: 3163
Location: Wellesley, MA

PostPosted: Dec 13, 2010    Post subject: Low pitching elbow? Reply with quote

Question for you guys re: shoulder alignment and elbows. Specifically looking into the injury risk potential if the elbow is below the shoulders as the throwing arm comes forward. Infielders throw like this all the time...

What's your take on this? Let's get a healthy discussion...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CSOleson
All Star
All Star


Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 630
Location: Colorado/Iowa

PostPosted: Dec 13, 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, a pitcher can't pitch for long with a quirk like this, but he could PITCH like this. It would be unhealthy and after so long you would see him on the bench with Tommy John or any number of surgeries. But how many pitches do we throw in a game? 80-120? How many times does a fielder do this at full speed during a game? 10 times max? You can put excess pressure on certain parts of your body of inanimate objects for a short period of time and successfully escape unscathed. However, you cannot do it forever if it is unhealthy. Technically, the body wasn't meant to pitch. God didn't build us to throw fastballs (Nolan Ryan is an exception, haha). So technically we create stress on our bodies every time we throw, and this is just a poor way of distributing the stress, especially over a long period of time.
_________________
RHP:
2-Seam & 4-Seam Fastball 83-85 mph
Curve 74-77 mph
Circle-Change 77-79 mph
Slider 80-82 mph
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Hammer
Hall Of Fame
Hall Of Fame


Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1906

PostPosted: Dec 13, 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's important to look at the shoulder alignment of the player as they make a throw. When submariners deliver they tilt their spine, so their actual arm angle is not adjusted.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
laflippin
Superstar
Superstar


Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 1478

PostPosted: Dec 13, 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I pretty much agree with the previous posters on this, at least by the time of maximum external rotation (MER)--where the forearm has laid back as far as its going to go during the delivery.

At that point, it looks like everybody's intrinsic or anatomical arm-angle is essentially 90 degrees, i.e., sidearm. The functional arm-angle at MER, the pitcher's arm-angle that a hitter perceives relative to an imaginary vertical axis, is achieved by tilting of the torso---tilting toward the throwing side to go submarine, tilting away from the throwing side to go 3/4 or over-the-top, and basically no tilt at all makes the condition intrinsic = functional and makes the pitcher a sidearmer.

A few years ago ASMI published a computational model of throwing suggesting unhealthy increases in valgus force at the throwing elbow for intrinsic arm-angles that differed significantly from 90 degrees. I'll see if I can dig that paper out if anyone is interested.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dwhite66
Junior High
Junior High


Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 28
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Dec 14, 2010    Post subject: little league vs big league Reply with quote

I titled the reply to the discussion Steven placed up here little league vs big league because that is really what this discussion is all about....

Now, I know I could be very wrong on this one and if I am, I am sure someone will post video to prove me so....lol....but as far as I know and have seen on video, there are no big league pitchers, not fielders, but pitchers who throw with their elbow below their shoulder as the arm snaps forward from external rotation into release position. There are definitely pitchers who are sidearm or submarine pitchers, but just as Hammer replied, that is not the elbow being below the shoulder, that is alignment of the spine and where the tilt of the spine is.

This is an issue for younger throwers/pitchers whose movement pattern is just either not developed yet or they just truly do not throw the ball well. I have seen some very creative arm actions as an instructor of kids doing all sorts of movements with their arm to throw the ball...lol.

It really just comes down to understanding what a solid arm action looks like and being able to help the younger guys to develop a better movement. But for the big league pitcher this is something they have long taken care of and there would be no way they would be in the bigs if they threw the way described in this discussion.

On a side note...a gentleman replied to this discussion that pitching or throwing is not natural...I would have to respectfully disagree with that statement. I understand anatomically that this argument could be made, but from the beginning of time humans have been making the overhand throwing or striking motion to survive. So for me, I feel that throwing is right along with everything else from sparing fish, meat, the javelin throw, volleyball, tennis, etc....it is natural, just like it is also natural for people to get hurt, that is a natural response that the nervous system has to take care of us so hopefully we won't go too far and really cause ourselves damage.

Ok, i'll shut up now.....LOL

Thanks
_________________
Doug White
www.passionforpitching.com
www.passionforpitching.blogspot.com
www.youtube.com/user/douglasbryantwhite
Minor League Pitching Instructor, St Louis Cardinals
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CSOleson
All Star
All Star


Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 630
Location: Colorado/Iowa

PostPosted: Dec 14, 2010    Post subject: Re: little league vs big league Reply with quote

douglasbryantwhite wrote:
On a side note...a gentleman replied to this discussion that pitching or throwing is not natural...I would have to respectfully disagree with that statement. I understand anatomically that this argument could be made, but from the beginning of time humans have been making the overhand throwing or striking motion to survive. So for me, I feel that throwing is right along with everything else from sparing fish, meat, the javelin throw, volleyball, tennis, etc....it is natural, just like it is also natural for people to get hurt, that is a natural response that the nervous system has to take care of us so hopefully we won't go too far and really cause ourselves damage.

I didn't say we weren't meant as people to throw, but we weren't meant to pitch. I think there is a slight difference.

See, we are throwing a 5 ounce ball at speeds in the excess of 90-95 miles an hour. I do not believe we were meant to do this on a consistent basis, and that is why pitchers have more arm injuries than everyone else. I do not disagree that most athletic motions are natural, I just do not think that pitching is a completely natural motion.
_________________
RHP:
2-Seam & 4-Seam Fastball 83-85 mph
Curve 74-77 mph
Circle-Change 77-79 mph
Slider 80-82 mph
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
laflippin
Superstar
Superstar


Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 1478

PostPosted: Dec 14, 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post, Doug.

One point that could be aired out a little more...throwing is a natural motion for human beings but throwing very large numbers of repetitions at very high speeds on a sloped surface may not be all that natural.

Baseball pitching at the different levels of competition seems to take a human motion that is natural and then we set game conditions in order to push the performers at any current level to the point where the few are separated from the many. And of course there's not just one branch-point per level: At MLB level the few are again separated from the many over and over and over until 'the few' includes only the Nolan Ryans, the Greg Madduxes, the Randy Johnsons, the Sandy Koufaxes, the Walter Johnsons...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dm59
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 2256

PostPosted: Dec 14, 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

laflippin wrote:
At that point, it looks like everybody's intrinsic or anatomical arm-angle is essentially 90 degrees, i.e., sidearm. The functional arm-angle at MER, the pitcher's arm-angle that a hitter perceives relative to an imaginary vertical axis, is achieved by tilting of the torso---tilting toward the throwing side to go submarine, tilting away from the throwing side to go 3/4 or over-the-top, and basically no tilt at all makes the condition intrinsic = functional and makes the pitcher a sidearmer.
Yeah, what he said!!

laflippin wrote:
A few years ago ASMI published a computational model of throwing suggesting unhealthy increases in valgus force at the throwing elbow for intrinsic arm-angles that differed significantly from 90 degrees.
I recall that, la. I believe I even posted in a thread on it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
laflippin
Superstar
Superstar


Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 1478

PostPosted: Dec 14, 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here it is, DM...they used exptl data for 33 subjects to construct kinematic models that they could then use to simulate the effect of changes in arm-angle (shoulder abduction) and trunk tilt on elbow varus force (not valgus force....).

J Appl Biomech. 2006 May;22(2):93-102.

Influence of shoulder abduction and lateral trunk tilt on peak elbow varus torque for college baseball pitchers during simulated pitching.

Matsuo T, Fleisig GS, Zheng N, Andrews JR

Osaka University, ASMI, Univ of Florida

Elbow varus torque is a primary factor in the risk of elbow injury during pitching. To examine the effects of shoulder abduction and lateral trunk tilt angles on elbow varus torque, we conducted simulation and regression analyses on 33 college baseball pitchers. Motion data were used for computer simulations in which two angles-shoulder abduction and lateral trunk tilt-were systematically altered. Forty-two simulated motions were generated for each pitcher, and the peak elbow varus torque for each simulated motion was calculated. A two-way analysis of variance was performed to analyze the effects of shoulder abduction and trunk tilt on elbow varus torque. Regression analyses of a simple regression model, second-order regression model, and multiple regression model were also performed. Although regression analyses did not show any significant relationship, computer simulation indicated that the peak elbow varus torque was affected by both angles, and the interaction of those angles was also significant. As trunk tilt to the contralateral side increased, the shoulder abduction angle producing the minimum peak elbow varus torque decreased. It is suggested that shoulder abduction and lateral trunk tilt may be only two of several determinants of peak elbow varus torque.

PMID: 16871000
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
scorekeeper
All Star
All Star


Joined: 12 Sep 2010
Posts: 942

PostPosted: Dec 14, 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t know Doug. I think I have to take issue with you a little. I think there’s more than one discussion point here. One is what’s the “natural” throwing motion, and another is what’s the “best” pitching motion. Then that one gets into what’s the “best” pitching motion to throw just any ball, as opposed to throwing a baseball. And even those get into what’s the “best” motion to have success at baseball as opposed to throwing a baseball with the least risk of injury. And all those could prolly get broken down into even more sub-categories. Confused

As far as what was natural, from the time man stood upright and figured out a thrown projectile could be a significant weapon, the arm action that brought down a beastie most efficiently was a “natural” one, and that may well have been an “overhand” throw. But throwing a rock or spear is a far far cry from pitching a baseball.

If I had to say what the most natural pitching motion was, I’d have to opt for the one which could be repeated the most often losing the least “efficiency”, plus be able to be used with the least amount of rest. To me, there’s absolutely no doubt that pitching motion is what’s used in FP softball. Even young girls and boys can pitch extremely well for long periods of time, then turn right around the same day and do it all over again, and again day after day. Plus, all the time they use a ball much larger and heavier than a baseball, yet still have an arm injury incidence that sure seems to be many times lower than baseball pitchers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
dwhite66
Junior High
Junior High


Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 28
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Dec 14, 2010    Post subject: Oops!! Reply with quote

I guess I shouldn't have made the side note comment because now the topic has gone from low elbow throwing to is throwing natural...LOL

I am new to this forum stuff so I am going to have to learn how to quote people from reply to reply like you all know how to do...maybe someone can help me with that... Very Happy

But CSOleson is right when he says we were not meant to throw from a mound, that many times, with the slope, the velocity and anything else you want to add to the statement....I totally get and agree with that...I just wanted to make a note that humans have been doing overhand movements since day one, so I call that natural...even though I am sure professional pitcher was not in the thought process of the cave man back in the day...
_________________
Doug White
www.passionforpitching.com
www.passionforpitching.blogspot.com
www.youtube.com/user/douglasbryantwhite
Minor League Pitching Instructor, St Louis Cardinals
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Zita Carno
Legend
Legend


Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 3627
Location: Tampa, Florida

PostPosted: Dec 15, 2010    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good freezing morning, Doug White.
As I read this smorgasbord of posts and differeing opinions I was once again reminded of the old poem about the blind men and the elephant---you know the one, six blind men came across an elephant; one took hold of the leg and announced that the elephant was like a tree, another grasped the trunk and said no, the creature was like a rope, and so on. The upshot of it all was that "though each was partly in the right, they all were in the wrong". Not one of them truly got the essence of the elephant.
Now let me put my fifty cents' worth into the mix (inflation, you know, and next thing we know it'll go up to a dollar).
Many moons ago I was a pitcher---a natural sidearmer who used the crossfire extensively, I was so in love with that delivery. I wasn't fast, but I could throw hard, and I had a natural curveball that had come attached to the sidearm delivery. I picked up a couple of other pitches---a palm ball which I used as a changeup, and a knuckle-curve which became my #2 pitch. I was doing all right with those pitches, and I could changeup on the knuckle-curve in particular---then, at age 16, because of my desire to know something about the slider which I had heard a lot about and had seen thrown in games, I got lucky and found a pitching coach who was one of the finest anyone could ever hope to work with. He was an active major-league pitcher, and when he saw where I was coming from and that I was willing to work at it, he took me in hand, worked with me and helped me all he could, which was immeasurable. From him I learned the ins and outs of strategic pitching, about expanding my repertoire, fielding my position, and when I stumbled on something and we both saw that it was working he helped me refine it. We worked together for almost four years, and I will always remember him. His name was Ed Lopat, and his specialty was beating the Cleveland Indians to an unrecognizable pulp.
Lopat firmly believed that every pitcher has a natural motion. Mine, as I said before, was sidearm, and he showed me how to take full advantage of it. By the way, with the sidearm delivery the elbow is on a level with the shoulder, neither higher nor lower. He was one of the greatest finesse pitchers in the game, and he shared its secrets with me, knowing that I would make good use of them. Smile Cool Baseball Pitcher
_________________
"Goddess of the Slider"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    LetsTalkPitching.com Forum Index -> General Pitching Advice All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Related topics
 Topics   Replies   Author   Views   Last Post 
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Announcement: Let's Talk Pitching Baseball Forum Rules 0 Steven Ellis 10143 Aug 28, 2005
Steven Ellis View latest post
No new posts When should youth pitchers start pitching competitively? 67 Steven Ellis 55737 Apr 18, 2014
Drake View latest post
No new posts Pitching Practice: Seperate or Part of Team Practice? 16 Bandit 20215 Sep 21, 2013
Zita Carno View latest post
No new posts pitching and other sports 18 ty's- dad 12505 Jul 24, 2013
13southcarolina View latest post
No new posts using legs while pitching 36 Grimes20 40958 Jun 15, 2013
Turn 22 View latest post